Hello Linuxers,
Please bear with the long mail. I am a new member here and my reason for joining is to get an idea of whats happenning in the Linux community especially in Mumbai. I am a hardware engineer by profession and I undertake maintainence for the SOHO segment. I learnt windows on my own since last 5 years by burning the midnight oil, but my networking knowledge is limitted to connecting machines peer to peer in windows. My first encounter with Linux was when Red Hat 8 was the current one. It loaded well on my Celeron 400 and I could configure the internet accounts and surf online using an external modem. However, the printouts in my LX 300 were never upto the same quality as in my Windows Me. The OpenOffice suite took longer to open in Linux than in Win. But the major problem was that printer could not get setup in OO so I would create docs in OO and open them in some other utility and print them. Ultimately that OS became a learning experiment than a proper day to day usable system.
Now I am currently learning the RHCE 033 module and was provided a set of CDs for Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS and they loaded well on my other P4 running existing XP. But it refused to detect my internal connexant modem though it exists in the kudzu listing as a pci device even with its proper name. The modem CD has linux drivers but even after loading all of them one by one, the modem would just not respond. The driverguide site gave a driver but the 180Kb something tar.gz file finally opened a 8Kb object file which I did not know what to do. Even in this OS, the print quality in my LX 300 is very poor compared to my XP. Again, Open Office simply vomits my paper out whenever print command is given.
I am not telling all this to look for solutions, but to highlight the problems that are making Big Billy have the last laugh. I use legal Windows OS in both comps. and the rest is freeware office, firewall, antivirus, anti-spyware etc. I want to promote Linux to home and small office users but with this situation, I am in a fix how this dream can materialise.
Many of you here have gone through these hurdles and are now master programmers too but what about dealers and sub dealers who want to promote Linux with their normal computer experience and knowledge? They are not programmers. Take any windows OS like 98 or Me or XP, it loads like butter and even when advanced drivers are not available, it performs general functions using its own drivers. A simple task like printing a word file in Linux is a problem when the Enterprise Edition in theory is supposed to be superior and office centric. Without modems, net and email which is a basic office function is impossible. The hardware I am talking about is no unknown one but a basic Intel based PC with a normal popular internal modem of a reputed company like D Link. I must add that the Xandros Linux installed beautifully before the RHEL was loaded and Xandros detected my modem and I surfed the net but again, print quality was lacking as in all other Linux I tried. An engineer cannot be expected to spend too much time on one system, that too for simple tasks of getting a PC up and running smoothly. He has to attend atlest 4 to 5 breakdown calls daily. Through the GUI, I fiddled with a lot of settings but got no result. As a result, Linux has still to reach the SOHO user as a fullfledged alternative to Windows. They are still on Windows. Unbranded computer assemblers that use and support varying hardware, still keep away from Linux.
I have a few suggestions for the developers and OS makers,
1. Have some sort of unity within the Linux community where simple things like driver support is available to everyone across Linux irrespective of freeware or paid versions. A free version that does not function properly makes no sense. The scattering of Linux flavours that have taken place should be re-channelised into one main objective and that is to provide a proper and similar, if not better alternative to Windows. Unity is strength.
2. Is there any development going on in making a Linux utility that converts windows drivers into Linux drivers as per the Linux flavour and kernel? If wine can run fullfledged Windows programs in Linux, this too should be a possibility.
3. Identify commonly used hardware that can be configured to give equaly good results in Linux too especially printers, modems. Scanners is another problem with Linux. None of the flavours I tried could setup my Canon D646u. A driver converter mentioned in point 2 could come in handy.
4. Please have some kernel intercompatibility in relation to device drivers so that drivers written for older kernels work on new ones too. I read in the recent LFY mag that internal modem drivers written for older kernels cannot work on newer ones. Linus Tarvolds could do something about this?
5. Make Linux not only developer friendly but normal hardware engineer friendly too.
Those who found my mail long and boring can send in their flames although I am sorry about that. But this was my experience which I wanted to share with you. As I go on in the RHCE course, I will learn more.
Best Wishes,
Rony.
On 28/08/04 00:46 +0530, Rony Bill wrote:
Hello Linuxers,
Please bear with the long mail. I am a new member here and my reason for joining is to get an idea of whats happenning in the Linux community especially in Mumbai. I am a hardware engineer by profession and I undertake maintainence for the SOHO segment. I learnt windows on my own since last 5 years by burning the midnight oil, but my networking knowledge is limitted to connecting machines peer to peer in windows. My first encounter with Linux was when Red Hat 8 was the current one. It loaded well on my Celeron 400 and I could configure the internet accounts and surf online using an external modem. However, the printouts in my LX 300 were never upto the same quality as in my Windows Me. The
I agree, printing is a major hassle in Linux. I have never had issues with dot matrix printing, or with laser jets (the good stuff, not consumer quality -- I haven't tried those yet). Inkjets have always been bad, in my experience.
OpenOffice suite took longer to open in Linux than in Win. But the major problem was that printer could not get setup in OO so I would create docs in
OpenOffice comes with its own printer management utility named spadmin.
OO and open them in some other utility and print them. Ultimately that OS became a learning experiment than a proper day to day usable system.
Now I am currently learning the RHCE 033 module and was provided a set of CDs for Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS and they loaded well on my other P4 running existing XP. But it refused to detect my internal connexant modem
Yikes, a Winmodem.
though it exists in the kudzu listing as a pci device even with its proper name. The modem CD has linux drivers but even after loading all of them one
The drivers are binary only, IIRC. You need to compile the source against your current version. This sucks. Blame the manufacturer for a broken device.
by one, the modem would just not respond. The driverguide site gave a driver but the 180Kb something tar.gz file finally opened a 8Kb object file which I did not know what to do. Even in this OS, the print quality in my LX 300 is very poor compared to my XP. Again, Open Office simply vomits my paper out whenever print command is given.
I am not telling all this to look for solutions, but to highlight the problems that are making Big Billy have the last laugh. I use legal Windows OS in both comps. and the rest is freeware office, firewall, antivirus, anti-spyware etc. I want to promote Linux to home and small office users but with this situation, I am in a fix how this dream can materialise.
Many of you here have gone through these hurdles and are now master programmers too but what about dealers and sub dealers who want to promote Linux with their normal computer experience and knowledge? They are not programmers. Take any windows OS like 98 or Me or XP, it loads like butter and even when advanced drivers are not available, it performs general functions using its own drivers. A
Given reasonably good hardware which has the specifications released, Linux support is excellent. Sadly, this is generally the commercial grade of equipment, rather than the cheap consumer grade.
simple task like printing a word file in Linux is a problem when the Enterprise Edition in theory is supposed to be superior and office centric. Without modems, net and email which is a basic office function is impossible. The hardware I am talking about is no unknown one but a basic
Hey! My Internet connectivity is running on an ethernet card. No dialup. And the one that my parents use is a 33.6 K external modem, which is still working fine.
Intel based PC with a normal popular internal modem of a reputed company like D Link. I must add that the Xandros Linux installed beautifully before the RHEL was loaded and Xandros detected my modem and I surfed the net but again, print quality was lacking as in all other Linux I tried. An engineer cannot be expected to spend too much time on one system, that too for simple tasks of getting a PC
Good hardware helps. Really. In hardware, you get what you pay for. In software as well, though the software payment is not cash but time.
up and running smoothly. He has to attend atlest 4 to 5 breakdown calls daily. Through the GUI, I fiddled with a lot of settings but got no result. As a result, Linux has still to reach the SOHO user as a fullfledged alternative to Windows. They are still on Windows. Unbranded computer assemblers that use and support varying hardware, still keep away from Linux.
I have a few suggestions for the developers and OS makers,
- Have some sort of unity within the Linux community where simple things
like driver support is available to everyone across Linux irrespective of freeware or paid versions. A free version that does not function properly
Get the manufacturers to provide specifications? Nvidia is a major offender.
makes no sense. The scattering of Linux flavours that have taken place should be re-channelised into one main objective and that is to provide a proper and similar, if not better alternative to Windows. Unity is strength.
- Is there any development going on in making a Linux utility that converts
windows drivers into Linux drivers as per the Linux flavour and kernel? If wine can run fullfledged Windows programs in Linux, this too should be a possibility.
ndiswrapper does some things.
- Identify commonly used hardware that can be configured to give equaly
good results in Linux too especially printers, modems. Scanners is another problem with Linux. None of the flavours I tried could setup my Canon D646u. A driver converter mentioned in point 2 could come in handy.
SPECIFICATIONS from the manufacturers?
- Please have some kernel intercompatibility in relation to device drivers
so that drivers written for older kernels work on new ones too. I read in the recent LFY mag that internal modem drivers written for older kernels cannot work on newer ones. Linus Tarvolds could do something about this?
Well, the recommended solution from the kernel development team is to build the drivers for the proper kernel version. Works for me.
- Make Linux not only developer friendly but normal hardware engineer
friendly too.
A well spec'ed box will work better and give fewer problems than a cheap, low end, lousy quality box. Its not hard to use Linux with good hardware that follows standards and the specifications are available. It is hard to use it where the manufacturer does not provide specifications. How about trying to sell better hardware instead?
Those who found my mail long and boring can send in their flames although I am sorry about that. But this was my experience which I wanted to share with you. As I go on in the RHCE course, I will learn more.
Hang around.
Devdas Bhagat
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Rony Bill wrote:
I have a few suggestions for the developers and OS makers,
- Have some sort of unity within the Linux community where simple things
like driver support is available to everyone across Linux irrespective of freeware or paid versions. A free version that does not function properly
I have read great reviews about Suse. You seem to be very much familiar with RHL. Why not give Suse a try ? Maybe it will work out for you. BTW I use gentoo :)
- Is there any development going on in making a Linux utility that converts
windows drivers into Linux drivers as per the Linux flavour and kernel? If wine can run fullfledged Windows programs in Linux, this too should be a possibility.
Well, I don't think that porting drivers across Os'es without the underlying source code is possible. Otherwise scarcity of drivers would not have been an issue in the first place. Somewhere on the net I read that FreeBSD can theoretically support such binary drivers. I'll just check that out. Also it mentioned that the design decision by Linux community was deliberate so as to force the manufacturers to release their source code. I don't know if it's true but this comment came from a FreeBSD kernel developer I guess.
Maybe the design decision of Linux kernel is not appropriate as far as drivers are concerned. It makes little sense in recompiling the entire kernel just for supporting some new devices. Whereas in Windows you just insert the CD given by the manufacturer and whoa! the drivers are installed. And this is true since Windows 95. Hopefully in near future driver installation will be a breeze just as Linux installation is today.
- Please have some kernel intercompatibility in relation to device drivers
so that drivers written for older kernels work on new ones too. I read in the recent LFY mag that internal modem drivers written for older kernels cannot work on newer ones. Linus Tarvolds could do something about this?
Exactly as I mentioned above. This is a major and understandable concern for hardware vendors and System Administrators. Kernel compilation is *a long task* on an i586/i686 + 32/64 MB RAM. Take into account some 20-25 PC's in a SOHO setup having slight nuances of their own ( some are P1's some P3's .. some have sound cards .. etc..) and the driver installation for new devices will be a *major task*
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Nikhil Joshi wrote:
not have been an issue in the first place. Somewhere on the net I read that FreeBSD can theoretically support such binary drivers. I'll just check that out. Also it mentioned that the design decision by Linux community was deliberate so as to force the manufacturers to release their source code. I don't know if it's true but this comment came from a FreeBSD kernel developer I guess.
Here's the link:
http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html
It's rather old comparison between FreeBSD,Linux, and 2K.
Here is the excerpt I was talking about :
The FreeBSD bootloader can load binary drivers at boot-time. This allows third-party driver manufacturers to distribute binary-only driver modules that can be loaded into any FreeBSD system. Due to the open-source nature of FreeBSD, it is very easy to develop device drivers for new hardware. Unfortunately, most device-manufacturers will only release binaries for Microsoft operating systems. This means that it can take several months after a hardware device has hit the market until a device driver is available.
The Linux community intentionally makes it difficult for hardware manufacturers to release binary-only drivers. This is meant to encourage hardware manufacturers to develop open-source device drivers. Unfortunately most vendors have been unwilling to release the source for their drivers so it is very difficult for Linux users to use vendor supplied drivers at all.
Microsoft has excellent relationships with hardware vendors. There are often conflicts when using a device driver on different versions of Microsoft Windows, but overall Windows users have excellent access to third party device drivers.
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Nikhil Joshi spake thusly:
- Please have some kernel intercompatibility in relation to device
drivers so that drivers written for older kernels work on new ones too. I read in the recent LFY mag that internal modem drivers written for older kernels cannot work on newer ones. Linus Tarvolds could do something about this?
Exactly as I mentioned above. This is a major and understandable concern for hardware vendors and System Administrators. Kernel compilation is *a long task* on an i586/i686 + 32/64 MB RAM. Take into account some 20-25 PC's in a SOHO setup having slight nuances of their own ( some are P1's some P3's .. some have sound cards .. etc..) and the driver installation for new devices will be a *major task*
This is not strictly as big an issue as you think. Compile a kernel for the lowest processor and with all the hardware drivers available as modules. You will need to do this only once. You can use it everywhere. You can even build a rpm package of all this using the kernel makefile itself.
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Rony Bill spake thusly:
could configure the internet accounts and surf online using an external modem. However, the printouts in my LX 300 were never upto the same quality as in my Windows Me. The OpenOffice suite took longer to open in Linux than in Win. But the major problem was that printer could not get setup in OO so I would create docs in OO and
Printing on GNU/Linux is still pretty young. But it is evolving fast. The problems for hardware support are the user community : folks in India should take a lead in writing drivers for common hardware here, who's support is bad or non existent. How many drivers are written here? I think we should start a coordinated effort for that, so that newbies and oldies can all contribute. The problem mostly is how to start.
- Identify commonly used hardware that can be configured to give
equaly good results in Linux too especially printers, modems. Scanners is another problem with Linux. None of the flavours I tried could setup my Canon D646u. A driver converter mentioned in point 2 could come in handy.
I think such list's exist.
wanted to share with you. As I go on in the RHCE course, I will learn more.
We live, we learn .. :)
At the least you will enjoy you time with GNU/Linux, I assure you.
Rony Bill wrote:
Hello Linuxers,
Please bear with the long mail. I am a new member here and my reason for joining is to get an idea of whats happenning in the Linux community especially in Mumbai. I am a hardware engineer by profession and I undertake maintainence for the SOHO segment. I learnt windows on my own since last 5 years by burning the midnight oil, but my networking knowledge is limitted to connecting machines peer to peer in windows. My first encounter with Linux was when Red Hat 8 was the current one. It loaded well on my Celeron 400 and I could configure the internet accounts and surf online using an external modem. However, the printouts in my LX 300 were never upto the same quality as in my Windows Me. The OpenOffice suite took longer to open in Linux than in Win. But the major problem was that printer could not get setup in OO so I would create docs in OO and open them in some other utility and print them. Ultimately that OS became a learning experiment than a proper day to day usable system.
<snip some part>
did not know what to do. Even in this OS, the print quality in my LX
300 is
very poor compared to my XP. Again, Open Office simply vomits my paper out whenever print command is given.
I am a self employed person like you. My involvement with GNU/Linux was more of enthusiasm rather then academic or carreer related. If you had used Red Hat Linux 8.0 you wouldn't had the above problem with printing, because with Red Hat 8.0 there was still support with LPRng. I also have a Epson LX 300 printer and I know that most of the business offices use DOT Matrix printers, especially small offices. Sadly, one would find people more talking about laser and ink jet printers in the lugs then dot matrix printers. In fact, earlier before most of the distros shifted to cups printing system, setting up printing with Dot Matrix was not so much of a pain. But laterly most of the distros have shifted to cups as their basic printing system and discarded LPRng (except Slackware and Suse - Oh I just love them both. But yes, Suse 9.1 does seem to have avoided LPRng. I have yet to check it out on that.) Before cups was available with Red Hat (or any distro), lpd was the basic printing tool available. But lpd had limitations since it printed only text files. To print other formats (typically the WYSIWYG type), one needed filters to output files in postscript format and then print it using ghostscript (a postscript interpreter). LPRng is the best printing tool for Dot Matrix printers. It appears that you have experimented with the latest distros, you will not be satisfied with the printing capabilities for you LX 300. My suggestion is to use Slackware 10.0. You will be more then satisfied. And trust me on that. I am using it at my office computer and I regularly take Spread sheet print outs from OpenOffice (1.1.2) or rather I should say ConectivaOffice ( the best compiled Open Office I have used so far).
Slackware uses apsfilter a filter setup program which uses the gnu-gs-fonts and ghostscript to make postscript output files and prints using LPRng. It is very simple but requires a bit of printing understanding to set it up. Believe me the print outs are better then the ones you get with Windows XP (or whatever).
HTH, Rajen.
-
Devdas Bhagat -
Nikhil Joshi -
quasi -
Rajen M. Parekh -
Rony Bill