This is for all those people involved in the recent flamewars, especially the "RTFM/Google" flamewars. Read this link that I've posted below, which points to the "KDM - KDE root problem" thread on the Gentoo-User mailing list. I think people should notice the obvious difference in the attitude of both the original poster, who's a newbie asking what may seem like a stupid question to the experienced users, and these very experienced users who are replying to him.
Here's the link: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/153496
Mrugesh
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 1:43 am, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
think people should notice the obvious difference in the attitude of both the original poster, who's a newbie asking what may seem like a stupid question to the experienced users, and these very experienced users who are replying
OP is not a newbie - just new to gentoo. He posts correctly, trimming the post and is responsive. He is just moving from slackware to gentoo. Our problem here is ppl moving from doze to linux. But this is not the basic problem. The basic problem is that there are people of all levels in the same list. Newbies, developers, hackers and gurus - 4 levels, and that leads to conflict. We should seriously think of starting a 'freshers' list where all beginner questions are asked and answered. Here only senior members with the patience to handle these queries would join and so there would be less of RTFM/STFW flames.
On 2/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 1:43 am, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
think people should notice the obvious difference in the attitude of both the original poster, who's a newbie asking what may seem like a stupid question to the experienced users, and these very experienced users who are replying
OP is not a newbie - just new to gentoo. He posts correctly, trimming the post and is responsive. He is just moving from slackware to gentoo. Our problem here is ppl moving from doze to linux. But this is not the basic problem. The basic problem is that there are people of all levels in the same list. Newbies, developers, hackers and gurus - 4 levels, and that leads to conflict. We should seriously think of starting a 'freshers' list where all beginner questions are asked and answered. Here only senior members with the patience to handle these queries would join and so there would be less of RTFM/STFW flames.
Hi Kenneth,
We have been through the discussion of splitting the list on the basis various criteria twice. Both times the conclusions reached were that it will be counterproductive. I searched through the archives but could not find the thread. IF you are interested, you can search the archives to find the thread. AFAIK, this thread is about a year old.
--> Vinayak H
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 10:56 am, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
We have been through the discussion of splitting the list on the basis various criteria twice. Both times the conclusions reached were that it will be counterproductive. I searched through the archives but could not find the thread. IF you are interested, you can search the archives to find the thread. AFAIK, this thread is about a year old.
please trim your posts. circumstances change - no harm in discussing it for the third time.
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 4:36 pm, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Besides, its become the habit of this list to pick up a seemingly unrelated and trivial point and create a huge (useless) discussion over it.
why 'useless', if is obviously useful to those who are participating in the discussion - not every thread is 'useful' to everyone.
--- Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 4:36 pm, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Besides, its become the habit of this list to pick up a seemingly unrelated and trivial point and create a huge (useless) discussion over it.
why 'useless', if is obviously useful to those who are participating in the discussion - not every thread is 'useful' to everyone.
--
Someone should write a book on this and call it "The argumentative indian". I'm sure it would sell.
I believe there was also a discussion to start a forum based on the lines of linuxquestions.org or similar where there would be multiple branches. I guess that was shot down too. With RSS, would having such a forum still be an issue for those who prefer things by mail (remember Philip commenting something to that effect).
-abhi
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On 2/10/06, Abhishek Daga abhishekdaga@yahoo.com wrote:
I believe there was also a discussion to start a forum based on the lines of linuxquestions.org or similar where there would be multiple branches. I guess that was shot down too. With RSS, would having such a forum still be an issue for those who prefer things by mail (remember Philip commenting something to that effect).
You can have a email-to-forum gateway but someone has to set it up. Also if someone posts on the forum, how will the post be routed back to the mailing list.
--> Vinayak H
Abhishek Daga wrote:
I believe there was also a discussion to start a forum based on the lines of linuxquestions.org or similar where there would be multiple branches. I guess that was shot down too. With RSS, would having such a forum still be an issue for those who prefer things by mail (remember Philip commenting something to that effect).
This is the linux _users_ group of Mumbai not a linux tech support group. Lets keep the technical aparthied out. If any of the group members want to start a segregated group, they are most welcome but please don't touch this group.
As a policy to control flames, we can set a limit to the number of mails that indulge in flames, even per person and we can also have a list of preset official statements that only should be quoted as flames for every specific rule break. This will keep the personal comments out and cut down on the ego issues. Once an official statement is quoted, there should be no further discussion on it except allowing a reply from the OP.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Friday 10 Feb 2006 1:34 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
As a policy to control flames, we can set a limit to the number of mails that indulge in flames, even per person and we can also have a list of preset official statements that only should be quoted as flames for every specific rule break.
+1 - rony, please provide the appropriate monitoing tools for group approval
Sometime Today, RB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
As a policy to control flames, we can set a limit to the number of
Why would you want to do that?
IAC, the policy is thus: If one of the list admins thinks that a flame war is turning counterproductive, he will step in and stop it. We have multiple list admins, and it is hoped that not all of them indulge in the same flamewar at the same time.
On Friday 10 February 2006 1:34 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
This is the linux _users_ group of Mumbai not a linux tech support group. Lets keep the technical aparthied out. If any of the group members want to start a segregated group, they are most welcome but please don't touch this group.
I was of the opinion that we should have split the group. But others (including newbies ) have very strong reservations. Btw this is the 3rd time this has cropped up. I am now "convinced" that splitting will be detrimental to all particularly newbies and accept the PIA of grouching about newbieisms, which the newbies so crave.
As a policy to control flames,
I think members are quite civil and the occasional phlegm is to be expected as the price of non apartheid and non censorship. Censorship is the refuge of the uncivilised.
On Thursday 09 February 2006 20:13, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
This is for all those people involved in the recent flamewars, especially the "RTFM/Google" flamewars. Read this link that I've posted below, which points to the "KDM - KDE root problem" thread on the Gentoo-User mailing list. I think people should notice the obvious difference in the attitude of both the original poster, who's a newbie asking what may seem like a stupid question to the experienced users, and these very experienced users who are replying to him.
There is nothing wrong with telling a newbie to RTFM or Google for his problems. Thats how things are in the *nix world. This isn't paid support that we should get off our lazy arses and spoonfeed teh newbies :)
Besides, its become the habit of this list to pick up a seemingly unrelated and trivial point and create a huge (useless) discussion over it. Nobody is an exception to this.
On Friday 10 February 2006 06:59, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
why 'useless', if is obviously useful to those who are participating in the discussion - not every thread is 'useful' to everyone.
Apparently we Indians have a problem. We talk too much and do less. All I am saying is people should stay away from turning a perfectly normal discussion into something frivolous and that too for a trivial mistake that the poster may have made. Before posting a reply people should keep in mind that nobody is perfect.
JTD wrote:
I am now "convinced" that splitting will be detrimental to all particularly newbies and accept the PIA of grouching about newbieisms, which the newbies so crave.
If splitting starts, then it will also reflect on the lug meets. We will be creating exclusive zones instead of being all inclusive, a fundamental feature of FOSS vis a vis commercial closed software.
I think members are quite civil and the occasional phlegm is to be expected as the price of non apartheid and non censorship. Censorship is the refuge of the uncivilised.
I am not against flaming, all I suggest is to make it organised and focussed so that the personal ill feelings are not created. For example,
1. If a member top posts, he is given a preset official phrase " The list rules do not permit top posting. Please post your reply below the original message. Thanks" Thats it. No comments like "Hey dude don't top post" or "Why are you top posting".
2. If a member asks for a solution that requires him/her to refer to the manual, instead of saying "rtfm" or "Ever heard of google" or "Don't you have access to google", he is simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
As a group, we could create a list of common mistakes made by members especially newbies and the corresponding official phrase for cautioning the member. Once we select the phrases, nobody should deviate from it and post prickly messages.
What I observed here is that some members do not have time to post solutions to the problems asked but they have a lot of time to go on and on with flame messages. Sometimes most posts are focussed on flames rather than technical information. Half or quarter of the time and web space spent on endless flaming can be spent on providing information and close the chapter.
Regards,
Rony.
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simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
And we can use an acronym to refer to this phrase. I suggest RTFM ;-)
Cheers, Siddhesh
PS: Please note that this is a joke.
On Friday 10 February 2006 19:29, Rony Bill wrote:
- If a member asks for a solution that requires him/her to refer to the
manual, instead of saying "rtfm" or "Ever heard of google" or "Don't you have access to google", he is simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
I would also add some link to the documentation if I know it. Some people want to read the documentation, but they're just not good at finding it.
I had this incident in the #linux-india channel, where I asked for the time of that Mark Shuttleworth's meet. Some fellow asked me to Google for it, even when he knew the time. Moreover commenting that I should learn to find stuff myself. I wonder.. why is it a problem to answer such a simple query as that than to make me spend some time Googling for a perfectly simple answer available at hand?
Look at it this way. Say some person asks a question to which you know the answer. But you tell him to read the documentation instead. The person should have read the documentation first, true, but when he can find the answer much easily, why should he be made to go the long way? In a way, doesn't this list act as a source of documentation? I mean, answer the question if you can and also point him to the documentation for future reference. If after that he still asks some stupid question, ignoring the documentation, then he deserves to be flamed!
This is not technical support I guess, but then again, what's the objective of the list? To tell people to RTFM all the time and end up having flame wars? Does this list exist just to discuss the timing and the location of the next LUG meet?
What I observed here is that some members do not have time to post solutions to the problems asked but they have a lot of time to go on and on with flame messages. Sometimes most posts are focussed on flames rather than technical information. Half or quarter of the time and web space spent on endless flaming can be spent on providing information and close the chapter.
Exactly what I mean!
Mrugesh
On Friday 10 February 2006 20:43, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 19:29, Rony Bill wrote:
- If a member asks for a solution that requires him/her to refer
to the manual, instead of saying "rtfm" or "Ever heard of google" or "Don't you have access to google", he is simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
I would also add some link to the documentation if I know it. Some people want to read the documentation, but they're just not good at finding it.
I had this incident in the #linux-india channel, where I asked for the time of that Mark Shuttleworth's meet. Some fellow asked me to Google for it, even when he knew the time. Moreover commenting that I should learn to find stuff myself. I wonder.. why is it a problem to answer such a simple query as that than to make me spend some time Googling for a perfectly simple answer available at hand?
The two things are not comparable. But anyway that n00b deserved to be flamed. It's not that people will ask a newbie to RTFM or Google for queries which have straightforward answers _BUT_ people do ask the newbie to show some attempt to solve his/her problem. I mean it doesn't take a genius to just stick in - kppp configuration linux - keywords to find thousands, if not millions of articles, on the subject!
Look at it this way. Say some person asks a question to which you know the answer. But you tell him to read the documentation instead. The person should have read the documentation first, true, but when he can find the answer much easily, why should he be made to go the long way? In a way, doesn't this list act as a source of documentation? I mean, answer the question if you can and also point him to the documentation for future reference. If after that he still
Read my above reply. Remember, we can't keep on answering the same question over and over and over. It's too annoying. A very good example is - "How do I access my windows drives?". I think I have answered it a million times already ( not here but IRC, Forums, in-person, personal emails, phone calls!! )
This is not technical support I guess, but then again, what's the objective of the list? To tell people to RTFM all the time and end up having flame wars? Does this list exist just to discuss the timing and the location of the next LUG meet?
I dont care about what people say about this list. I dont see anybody asking about QT, GTK API reference / help on this list. According to me this list is a semi-technical one and it should stay the way it is. Any attempt to break it into two will increase hassles for its members!
I dont even know why I keep responding to such threads! :) I have a lot of coding to do ;)
Bye,
On Friday 10 Feb 2006 7:29 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
If splitting starts, then it will also reflect on the lug meets. We will be creating exclusive zones instead of being all inclusive, a fundamental feature of FOSS vis a vis commercial closed software.
who is talking about splitting? all you need to do is have an additional mailing list - say 'installation and hardware' and call this a general mailing list. 90% of members will join both. if you look at http://linuxchix.org you will see what i mean. This will be a way of organising content in a more rational way. Me thinks some people are thinking of a 'newbie' list where newbies go, and after they past some test, get promoted to the the 'real' list.
On Friday 10 February 2006 7:29 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
I am not against flaming, all I suggest is to make it organised and focussed so that the personal ill feelings are not created. For example,
The flames are personal only very very rarely and imo more in the heat of the moment than any real belief about personalities.
- If a member top posts,
Ha ha flame by the manual. So we have to tell flamers to RTFM. Yuck. can u imagine dry lightless flames.
Half or quarter of the time and web space spent on endless flaming can be spent on providing information and close the chapter.
Which completely misses the point of self help and independence. I dont see much value in answering an un researched question.
On 2/11/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 20:43, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 19:29, Rony Bill wrote:
- If a member asks for a solution that requires him/her to refer
to the manual, instead of saying "rtfm" or "Ever heard of google" or "Don't you have access to google", he is simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
I would also add some link to the documentation if I know it. Some people want to read the documentation, but they're just not good at finding it.
I had this incident in the #linux-india channel, where I asked for the time of that Mark Shuttleworth's meet. Some fellow asked me to Google for it, even when he knew the time. Moreover commenting that I should learn to find stuff myself. I wonder.. why is it a problem to answer such a simple query as that than to make me spend some time Googling for a perfectly simple answer available at hand?
The two things are not comparable. But anyway that n00b deserved to be flamed. It's not that people will ask a newbie to RTFM or Google for queries which have straightforward answers _BUT_ people do ask the newbie to show some attempt to solve his/her problem. I mean it doesn't take a genius to just stick in - kppp configuration linux - keywords to find thousands, if not millions of articles, on the subject!
Look at it this way. Say some person asks a question to which you know the answer. But you tell him to read the documentation instead. The person should have read the documentation first, true, but when he can find the answer much easily, why should he be made to go the long way? In a way, doesn't this list act as a source of documentation? I mean, answer the question if you can and also point him to the documentation for future reference. If after that he still
Read my above reply. Remember, we can't keep on answering the same question over and over and over. It's too annoying. A very good example is - "How do I access my windows drives?". I think I have answered it a million times already ( not here but IRC, Forums, in-person, personal emails, phone calls!! )
Dude dont answer if u think its been asked over and over again. But by posting a reply that puts him off, ur not any favor to the community either. I know its probably one of the most written about stuff on the net and there should be no problem in finding a solution by searching for it, still i dont see any reason why we need to reply with a "heard of google" kinda thing. I think its best not to reply if u feel like that.
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 01:09:20AM +0530, ???????????? (Anand M R) wrote:
Dude dont answer if u think its been asked over and over again. But
^ ^ ^
by posting a reply that puts him off, ur not any favor to the
^
THWACK, while we're at it.
Don't feel singled out; the thwacks go for everyone else who does that sort of thing, too.
On Sunday 12 February 2006 07:18, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
First, trim your posts in the future. Second, RTFM or telling someone to Google isn't _wrong_. Anybody with a little common sense will first Google for his problem and _if_ he doesn't find any replies _or_ he doesn't know how to Google _then_ he may say so and we will help take care of his _special_ needs.
Look, I am no guru at Linux but certainly I find it that people are ready to help you out if you quote threads/references or a simple Google search...
-- Dinesh A. Joshi
Dude, now even I don't understand why you keep posting in such threads. Wait, I don't know why I keep reading your posts! You're too rigid and stubborn and are not willing to accept or even listen to any other point of view but your own.
Mrugesh
On Saturday 11 February 2006 19:39, आनंद (Anand M R) wrote:
*snip*
Dude dont answer if u think its been asked over and over again. But by posting a reply that puts him off, ur not any favor to the community either. I know its probably one of the most written about stuff on the net and there should be no problem in finding a solution by searching for it, still i dont see any reason why we need to reply with a "heard of google" kinda thing. I think its best not to reply if u feel like that.
First, trim your posts in the future. Second, RTFM or telling someone to Google isn't _wrong_. Anybody with a little common sense will first Google for his problem and _if_ he doesn't find any replies _or_ he doesn't know how to Google _then_ he may say so and we will help take care of his _special_ needs.
Look, I am no guru at Linux but certainly I find it that people are ready to help you out if you quote threads/references or a simple Google search...
On Sunday 12 Feb 2006 1:09 am, आनंद (Anand M R) wrote:
On 2/11/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 20:43, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 19:29, Rony Bill wrote:
- If a member asks for a solution that requires him/her to
refer to the manual, instead of saying "rtfm" or "Ever heard of google" or "Don't you have access to google", he is simply given another preset phrase " This problem can be solved by refering to the manual and even searching google for it. If you still face problems, then please post a report on what you did so far and at what point are you facing problems".
I would also add some link to the documentation if I know it. Some people want to read the documentation, but they're just not good at finding it.
I had this incident in the #linux-india channel, where I asked for the time of that Mark Shuttleworth's meet. Some fellow asked me to Google for it, even when he knew the time. Moreover commenting that I should learn to find stuff myself. I wonder.. why is it a problem to answer such a simple query as that than to make me spend some time Googling for a perfectly simple answer available at hand?
The two things are not comparable. But anyway that n00b deserved to be flamed. It's not that people will ask a newbie to RTFM or Google for queries which have straightforward answers _BUT_ people do ask the newbie to show some attempt to solve his/her problem. I mean it doesn't take a genius to just stick in - kppp configuration linux - keywords to find thousands, if not millions of articles, on the subject!
Look at it this way. Say some person asks a question to which you know the answer. But you tell him to read the documentation instead. The person should have read the documentation first, true, but when he can find the answer much easily, why should he be made to go the long way? In a way, doesn't this list act as a source of documentation? I mean, answer the question if you can and also point him to the documentation for future reference. If after that he still
what is the relevance of the above to your post - why cant you trim it
Sometime on Feb 11, MK cobbled together some glyphs to say:
This is not technical support I guess, but then again, what's the objective of the list? To tell people to RTFM all the time and end up
For users to discuss how they're using linux and tell each other about the cool stuff they've done. That's the primary objective of this list, and has been for 7 years. Support occurs in the form of: "That's cool, but why don't you try this instead..."
On Monday 13 February 2006 14:09, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime on Feb 11, MK cobbled together some glyphs to say:
This is not technical support I guess, but then again, what's the objective of the list? To tell people to RTFM all the time and end up
For users to discuss how they're using linux and tell each other about the cool stuff they've done. That's the primary objective of this list, and has been for 7 years. Support occurs in the form of: "That's cool, but why don't you try this instead..."
Hmmm, in that case, a newbie list would be beneficial methinks, as many people seem to post their problems and questions on this list and apparently, they're not suppose to.
Mrugesh
Sometime on Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 05:44:08PM +0530, Mrugesh Karnik said:
Hmmm, in that case, a newbie list would be beneficial methinks, as many people seem to post their problems and questions on this list and apparently, they're not suppose to.
We're not getting any kind of newbie list. Flames and personal attacks can be controlled if we behave responsibly and stick to our mailing list guidelines.
Anurag
Sometime Today, MK cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Hmmm, in that case, a newbie list would be beneficial methinks, as many people seem to post their problems and questions on this list and apparently, they're not suppose to.
They can post their problems if they show that they're enthusiastic enough to try things on their own. People who come in and say, "here I am, I'm using linux. Thank me and help me." are not welcome. Always, always, show that you're interested in fixing things yourself.
Read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html for some great tips.
Philip
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 13 February 2006 14:09, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime on Feb 11, MK cobbled together some
glyphs to say:
This is not technical support I guess, but then
again, what's the
objective of the list? To tell people to RTFM
all the time and end up
I dont see RMS finding a problem when he has to deliver his speech about GNU over and over again to newbies and answer all the questions they have. Thats why a list is there to answer queries, But we have some rude high and mighty list members who most of the time make it a point to screw the newbies happiness rather than answer any questions.
The idea is to promote linux, But with the kind of people there are on this list, I am sure most people will think ten times to ask a question.
See where this thread is going, Nowhere! Its cluttered with crap because one guy couldnt direct a newbie to a simple answer or a place to find it and thats what happening most of the time.
Regards, Keith
Regards, Keith Fernandez ------------------- "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, But by the moments that take our breath away"
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We're not getting any kind of newbie list. Flames and personal attacks can be controlled if we behave responsibly and stick to our mailing list guidelines.
Anurag
I agree with anurag that there shouldn't be separation of the group. One group is the way to go. You'll can always ignore answering a question by an old member that is not well researched. Whereas you can answer not so well researched question by a newbie if you'll like to.
--- Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
Yes, and its a _free_, _community_ list. Not a paid technical support. People on this list are real human beings with real lives. Not some call center guys who are paid to give you tech support ( yeah right! we're better than them. )
</snip>
Yeah, And so are most of the linux community lists. The point is its free as you said. If you dont have something good to say, why say it at all. Your not paid to provide answers, So shutup if you dont have anything good to say, maybe someone else will feel like providing an answer.
But if provide rude crappy answers, the thread goes on and on and on and on and on and in the end we are not even talking about linux......
Regards, Keith
Regards, Keith Fernandez ------------------- "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, But by the moments that take our breath away"
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--- Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 13 February 2006 14:20, Keith Fernandez wrote: *snip*
Your not paid to provide answers, So shutup if you dont have anything good to say, maybe someone else will feel like providing an answer.
Practice what you preach :)
Dinesh A. Joshi
I hope u didnt take it personally. It was for all relevant people.
Regards, Keith
Regards, Keith Fernandez ------------------- "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, But by the moments that take our breath away"
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mehul wrote:
I agree with anurag that there shouldn't be separation of the group. One group is the way to go. You'll can always ignore answering a question by an old member that is not well researched. Whereas you can answer not so well researched question by a newbie if you'll like to.
True, but some people like to spend more effort in flaming than guiding. There is no compulsion in giving tech. info, but a member who makes mistakes can be told nicely to become self reliant or correct his mistakes, instead of flaming him. Many new members may not be aware of the concept of flaming and its non personal nature. They may take it personally. What makes matters worse is that some members not appointed as moderators become the local police. Let the reprimands come smoothly and officially through the proper channels.
Regards,
Rony.
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Hi,
I am new to linux. when I say new I mean I am not an expert linux user. As a user who benefits from a list like this I would like to say something. I never ask questions before I do a search (not only in google) or as u say without Reading TFM. I try to get the solution by myself all the time. I like linux a lot. I suggest people to use linux. I tell them there are excellent people around who can guide you anytime you have a problem. I strongly believe only linux has got such a wonderful community unlike Windows. But when I see posts like these I definitely fear asking questions.
As a novice I thank you all for providing such a great support to linux community. Though I hardly raised 1 or 2 questions, I started liking linux only after I see this wonderful community. It gives me a feeling I should contribute as much as I could to this community. For a user like me every word you say in this list matters.
Why this community has to compare itself with a job of a call center person? This time and effort that you put in here is worth as good as the one who took the time to write a kernel and made it publicly available.
Let me ask you one question. I believe this list is to help develop linux and help people to use linux. If this is correct why people here compare themselves with those providing technical support. You should realise you are doing something great than even those providing tech support. You can always guide people to ask good questions like the one in this link http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. If they do not comply with this you always have the choice of not answering his questions. What more is required for a user to understand when his question is completely ignored?
Always a person's thoughts are wrong and not the person himself. Help him change his thoughts.
-- True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all. -Socrates
Regards, Raj
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Hmmm, in that case, a newbie list would be beneficial methinks, as many people seem to post their problems and questions on this list and apparently, they're not suppose to.
My observation is that when a person googles for information on linux, it will throw up one of the list messages that contain the topic either in subject or body. Our message bodies contain only one link and thats of the list home page. We could slowly build up a new link that contains 2 main sections a) How Tos and b) Possible solutions to FA problems. This would need tech inputs from the experts. The most important part would be to permanently add this link in all the message bodies along with the 'linuxers' link.
Regards,
Rony.
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Sometime Today, RB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
personally. What makes matters worse is that some members not appointed as moderators become the local police. Let the reprimands come smoothly
this list is self-moderated. all users have the right to reprimand all other users. the list admins only try to stop spam and overly abusive behaviour.
On Monday 13 February 2006 12:24, Anurag wrote:
Sometime on Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 05:44:08PM +0530, Mrugesh Karnik
said:
Hmmm, in that case, a newbie list would be beneficial methinks, as many people seem to post their problems and questions on this list and apparently, they're not suppose to.
We're not getting any kind of newbie list. Flames and personal attacks can be controlled if we behave responsibly and stick to our mailing list guidelines.
Anurag
Right. We already have a wiki, don't we? Senior users ( ideally everyone ) should contribute to the wiki. That way we can point the newbies to the wiki. If that doesn't help them then someone can post an answer to their problem or atleast direct them to the right resource. That way people* wont complain about the RTFM, Google replies. But then people* will find something new to complain and crib about... Just forget that I even exist <_<
#include<no-flame-disclaimer.h>
* = people is a general reference to the set of human beings reading / posting on this list. It's not directed at anybody specific. No offence meant.
On Monday 13 February 2006 12:38, Keith Fernandez wrote:
I dont see RMS finding a problem when he has to deliver his speech about GNU over and over again to newbies and answer all the questions they have.
Are you disappointed that we aren't RMS? ;)
Thats why a list is there to answer queries, But we
Yes, and its a _free_, _community_ list. Not a paid technical support. People on this list are real human beings with real lives. Not some call center guys who are paid to give you tech support ( yeah right! we're better than them. )
have some rude high and mighty list members who most of the time make it a point to screw the newbies happiness rather than answer any questions.
lol. I hope that wasn't a flame bait ;)
The idea is to promote linux, But with the kind of people there are on this list, I am sure most people will think ten times to ask a question.
At least it will keep people from asking stupid questions. It's not that newbies fear this list. Because if they would then there wouldn't be so many questions around.
See where this thread is going, Nowhere! Its cluttered with crap because one guy couldnt direct a newbie to a simple answer or a place to find it and thats what happening most of the time.
No. It's because the original thread went off topic. It's because someone raised genuine security concerns. It's because the OP didn't agree with him and didn't get his answer because he failed to describe his problem while supplying sufficient details.
On Monday 13 February 2006 15:28, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Right. We already have a wiki, don't we? Senior users ( ideally everyone ) should contribute to the wiki. That way we can point the newbies to the wiki.
<snip> RFTW? ;-)
(Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) )
see? A real live example! People will find something or the other to complain about! :|
P.S.: Siddhesh, I am just kidding ;)
On Monday 13 February 2006 16:06, Keith Fernandez wrote:
--- Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 13 February 2006 14:20, Keith Fernandez wrote: *snip*
Your not paid to provide answers, So shutup if you dont have anything good to say, maybe someone else will feel like providing an answer.
Practice what you preach :)
Dinesh A. Joshi
I hope u didnt take it personally. It was for all relevant people.
Nope. I didn't take anything personally. I just reminded all relevant people that they need to practice what they preach :)
On 2/14/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 13 February 2006 16:42, Varadarajan V wrote:
Always a person's thoughts are wrong and not the person himself. Help him change his thoughts.
We are far from judging a person. And yes I believe when most people say
- "RTFM" or "Google it" they are trying to change his thoughts.
Yes I agree. But are we sure the person understood what is "RTFM" and "google it"? Is it possible to have another list to help them? I am sure there are people willing to help them.
-- True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all. -Socrates
Regards, Raj
On Monday 13 Feb 2006 10:00 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
personally. What makes matters worse is that some members not appointed as moderators become the local police. Let the reprimands come smoothly and officially through the proper channels.
in triplicate - with right to appeal ;-)
On Monday 13 Feb 2006 8:58 pm, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
<snip> RFTW? ;-)
it is STFW
On Monday 13 February 2006 16:42, Varadarajan V wrote:
I am new to linux. when I say new I mean I am not an expert linux user. As a user who benefits from a list like this I would like to say something. I never ask questions before I do a search (not only in google) or as u say without Reading TFM. I try to get the solution by myself all the time. I like linux a
See? This is the natural thing to do. I dont claim to be a linux guru. I too am a newbie to most things linux. I have learnt everything through Google, LUGs. I have hardly ever asked questions on forums, LUGs or IRC. Why? Well I simply feel Google is the fastest way of getting your answer. Thats human tendancy or atleast my way of thinking.
But there are people who think otherwise. They think that instead of investing 5-10 mins in Googling their problem they would rather invest 20 mins in making a post at a forum / ML and waiting about 24 hours... It may / may not occur to them that Google is a great resource.
Personally, I dont give RTFM to as many people as possible. I know reading man pages can be frustrating. You can spend 10 hours reading 100s of man pages and still end up with nothing (if you're new to linux). The online docs can also be poorly written. But it doesn't take too much effort to Google stuff.
I think if the user doesn't show an effort in trying to solve your problem then he is bound to get a few RTFMs / Google it! replies or his post may get entirely ignored.
See it was only today that we got a guy on IRC who asked what $obj->abc meant in PHP. We explained to him in detail what it meant. Can you guess what was his next question? He was asking how he could assign a value to that attribute. Now it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to assign the value. We had to give him RTFM / Google it. Another clown wanted to install Media WIKI or something without a server. He had unzipped the files in "My Documents" and was opening up the index.php script in IE but he couldn't see Media WIKI functioning. All he saw was text code.
Patience is surely a virtue. It wears thin when people don't want to invest their time in researching about their problems. I am willing to shut up but then there will be someone else who will give him RTFM/Google it ;)
answering his questions. What more is required for a user to understand when his question is completely ignored?
I dont like giving the cold shoulder to people. We are here for support. If we give the silent treatement to everyone who doesnt Google or Reads the manual or gives insufficient details then it wouldn't be right as some newbies dont even know how to post in a mailing list. I believe I was one of them some months back ;).
Always a person's thoughts are wrong and not the person himself. Help him change his thoughts.
We are far from judging a person. And yes I believe when most people say - "RTFM" or "Google it" they are trying to change his thoughts.
On 13/02/06 22:12 +0530, Varadarajan V wrote:
Hi,
I am new to linux. when I say new I mean I am not an expert linux user. As a user who benefits from a list like this
That is fine. Most of us (including me), are not experts.
I would like to say something. I never ask questions before I do a search (not only in google) or as u say without Reading TFM. I try to get the solution by myself all the time. I like linux a lot. I suggest people to use linux. I tell them there are excellent people around who can guide you anytime you have a problem. I strongly believe only linux has got such a wonderful community unlike Windows. But when I see posts like these I definitely fear asking questions.
Nah, if you have put in effort and not got answers, the list is usually not a bad place to ask. If you can show what you have searched for, it helps us figure out terms you have missed and we can point you to those.
As a novice I thank you all for providing such a great support to linux community. Though I hardly raised 1 or 2 questions, I started liking linux only after I see this wonderful community. It gives me a feeling I should contribute as much as I could to this community. For a user like me every word you say in this list matters.
Why this community has to compare itself with a job of a call center person?
If the list becomes the first point of support, then it is being used exactly as a call centre. Keep in mind that first point of support lists are almost always commerically priced.
This time and effort that you put in here is worth as good as the one who took the time to write a kernel and made it publicly available.
Let me ask you one question. I believe this list is to help develop linux and help people to use linux. If this is correct why people here compare themselves with those providing technical support. You should realise you are doing something great than even those providing tech support. You can always
Call me cynical, but that _really_ doesn't do much good. If the list is being used as tech support, then the people doing that should be willing to pay for it.
guide people to ask good questions like the one in this link http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. If they do not comply with this you always have the choice of not answering his questions. What more is required for a user to understand when his question is completely ignored?
The fact that his/her question is actually answered in the manual. The point of writing documentation is so that others can read it and benefit from it. If the documentation is not clear, it can be enhanced easily by anyone. If users are not going to read documentation, then the time of the documentation writer is being wasted. Writing good documentation is harder than it looks.
Devdas Bhagat
Hi all,
My thoughts below:
Nah, if you have put in effort and not got answers, the list is usually not a bad place to ask. If you can show what you have searched for, it helps us figure out terms you have missed and we can point you to those.
Indeed.
There is a difference between helping and spoon-feeding.
From what I have seen so far in India,
students/newbies are not taught to think. Education doesn't train them to think. They are being spoon-fed all the time.
So, when they come out of their shell to the real world, they don't know how to tackle/solve problems. They expect everyone to spoon-feed them and solve the problems for them.
So, it is essential that they learn to troubleshoot/debug, and only ask for help after they have done their homework.
Just my thoughts,
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan, MS Software Engineer, Hexaware Technologies [E]: shakthimaan@yahoo.com [M]: (91) 98407-87007 [W]: http://www.shakthimaan.com [L]: Chennai, India
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On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 23:12 -0800, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Someone should write a book on this and call it "The argumentative indian". I'm sure it would sell.
It has already been done by Amartya Sen. I have not read it though but I plan to :) (given the traffice this thread has generated).
--- "Arun K. Khan" knura@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 23:12 -0800, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Someone should write a book on this and call it "The argumentative indian". I'm sure it would sell.
It has already been done by Amartya Sen.
No kidding!! I would have never guessed. :) -abhi
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Someone should write a book on this and call it "The argumentative indian". I'm sure it would sell.
An old tamil saying goes something like "Debates and arguments are the birthright of scholars". :-)
--
Arun Khan Linux is like a wigwam - no gates, no windows, apache inside
-- Warm Regards ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vinayak http://theregoesanotherday.blogspot.com/
It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance.
On Thursday 16 February 2006 08:22, Vinayakam Murugan wrote:
An old tamil saying goes something like "Debates and arguments are the birthright of scholars". :-)
But they should lead somewhere. Not go round and round endlessly ;)
10 CLS 20 I$ = "" 30 I$ = ARGUMENT( I$ ) 40 I$ = COUNTERARGUMENT( I$ ) 50 GOTO 30 60 END
Disclaimer: Don't flame me on my 1337 BASIC programming skills.
-
Abhishek Daga -
Anurag -
Arun K. Khan -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
JTD -
Keith Fernandez -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
mehul -
Mrugesh Karnik -
Philip Tellis -
Rony Bill -
Satya -
Shakthi Kannan -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Varadarajan V -
Vinayak Hegde -
Vinayakam Murugan -
आनंद (Anand M R)