On Sunday 27 November 2011 22:50:09 Dinesh Shah wrote:
Disclaimer: Long post with lots of in-line reply.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:51 PM, <jtd(a)mtnl.net.in> wrote:
On Sunday 27 November 2011 17:06:57 Dinesh Shah
On Nov 27, 2011, at 9:33, Binand Sethumadhavan
On 26 November 2011 23:09, Rony
>> and I suppose that you also believe that you need to know how to
>> in order to get a driving license?
> Kill the wrong process not the purpose of it.
This is what we should do. Kill the wrong process, and implement a
right one. Not build another process that is equally if not more
flawed on top of it and then hope that these two wrong processes will
cancel out each other.
Good. Now we should be able to make some headway. Experts here please
suggest appropriate solution to this identity problem?
If we can provide an alternative and "correct" solution no one can
deny to adopt that one!
Oh. Is the problem defined? Or do we proceed on the brain dead assumption
that people dont have identities. Identity is one that I choose to
identify myself as.
Agreed. But the identity YOU choose to be identified with should be
acceptable to others with whom you would like to transact.
The state has no say in the matter.
What is state? The government? the geographically bounded region of
earth? The Constitution? Laws? Customs? Culture? People?
Very well defined: The government.
The problem the state is trying to solve is
wholly of it's own invention.
Which is to selectively channelise resources to it's choosen ones.
Agreed. Caste/Religion based reservation is shining example of that.
Total rubbish. Caste based reservations is to ameliorate discriminatory
conditions caused by society over long periods of our history. There are no
religious reservations that I am aware of.
Why does one
need a freaking ration card to buy ration when trillions of
tons of food lies rotting. Not to mention the cattle quality starvation
quantity dished out in he PDS.
Why do I need proof of identity to open a bank
account with my money, on
which the bank profits.
Will you allow me to open a bank account in your name and do any kind
of transactions in that account?
There are innumerable bank accounts that have common names. They are
diffrentiated by a account number. So someone opening an account as jtd cant
affect my account. And yes he can do any type of transaction in that account
because it is his money. When the bank has to give me a loan od etc the bank
has to perform due diligence.
That there are various vicarious caveats like foreign exchange imposed with
wholly ulterior motives by the state is a different matter and has nothing at
all to do with identity.
Why does a small borrower need hundreds of docs
to borrow from a bank,
when trillions of Rs. of loans to sakhar karkhanas are written off?
Precisely. You literally need tons of paper to get any thing done in
You read half the line. You dont need tons of paper to get your loans written
off if you are a politico. And 2 tons of paper wont writeoff a penny if you
arent a politico. Everything to do with a certain type of identity, but
definetly not the sort you think.
Why do I need proof of identity to enter a death
trap known as public
health service, as though the government was conferring luxury services.
Without this how will you recover your health insurance money? you
have a health insurance right? :-)
Health insurance in KEM hospital? which universe are you living in? Public
health service is free.
Why do I need proof to buy a freakin cell phone
connection. OH oh
So is it OK to buy a cell phone in your name make obscene calls to
these cute girls in my neighbourhood? :-)
Please spare me cheapskate statements that has no basis in facts and figures.
Those calls will be a number to the 10th decimal place. And follows the exact
same flawed logic of jailing everyone because of a few madcaps.
Never mind that bombs go off as and when the
bombers please and the cops
get rapped in court for fake encounters.
Talk of manufacturing solutions to non existent
Cart, horse etc.
Just get off this nonsense of people not having
identity. The state wants
to target selectively groups it may wish to confer benefits on or
supress. Hence this manufactured need.
That already exist in the form of caste and religion based reservation
system so why complain against UID?
Rubbish. Read my earlier statement.
At least they are not saying they
will only issue ID to select people of select caste and/or religion or
WOW. what a wonderfully gutter level bench mark.
The so called leakages stem from the fact that
the qualification criteria
for PDS, health and other entitlements are pegged so low that huge
swathes of our people who should be actually entitled to these services
are denied that.
because they dont have identity,
but because the state chooses to play a
cynical vote / power channelling game.
The ones who can "afford" better
services already avail of them by paying top dollars.
The utterly inhumane Rs.32/- per day per person is a case in point.
Indeed. This is most ridiculous thing to do.
It angers me no end that the richest
professionals in the country along
with the government are riding on the backs of the poor, without the
slightest thought to the above mentioned reasons.
Are you referring to UAIDA or all other professionals?
The UIDAI and their supporters who think that a dog tag number is a fine
Foisting a wholly artificial and
manufactured "identity crisis", and plastering onto that all sorts of
panaceas for corruption, poverty elevation, rural employment, banking
That is the mis-sell on part of the Govt. and UAIDA. They should have
limited their scope and role to just providing the Unique ID.
Not a single study has been undertaken to show
that identity is the
But do you agree that having plethora of IDs is a problem?
Nobody has a plethora of ids, again with a miniscule minority who will easily
be able to obtain multiple ids in a any new system. And i fail to see how
having a plethora of documents (if that is what you are referring to) is a
problem. If anything it is actually dividing the problem.
Or even no
study have been conducted for that issue either?
Many many studies on multiple ids within a particular documents context. Guess
what? atleast in the case of pds the number of duplicates was less than 8%
and was easily corrected.
Infact existing studies show that it is the
native power structures and
arbitrary rules that have caused the problem. Yet we insist on keeping
the arbitrary rules in place and spending humongous amounts of money to
climb those artificial barriers, instead of demolishing and flattening
those barriers, providing equal universal access to basic neccessities of
food clothes, medicine, education etc.
Agreed. How can we help remove those arbitrary rules?
Lobbying by NGOS and civil rights activists.
all existing rules and laws are framed and passed by our "honourable"
elected representatives. (MPs, MLAs, etc.)
And we are playing right into their hands with this UID business.
One does not need a name to eat or learn or be
nursed back to health.
Agreed. But in a society we need more than that and you can not avail
(lawfully) of any if people in your society/community does not know
People know each other very well. Infact the identity problem is non existent
in our daily lives precisely because of this - relationships and trusted
referrals. It is only when we bring in artificial KYC and entitlement norms
that we begin to have problems. Instead of correcting these artificial
barriers, tax payers money is being blown up.
More importantly what ever it is that the state profeers, must be available
to all without having to run through the entitlement gauntlet. Kerala state
has made the PDS system universal. Everyone can avail of PDS food.
Without an artificial scarcity, there is no market for corruption.
But one does require steely resolve to bring ones
self out of ones glass
tower and stand with the poorest of the poor.
How? By becoming poor?
Not by actually becoming poor permanently, but by living with them on the same
resources and constraints, so that the real underlying reasons can be
understood. Rather than glass house telescopic observations, that grandiously
and gratuosly concluded that people dont have identities.
The last few
persons to do that were M. K. Gandhi and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.
One would do well to read carefully their views on our society and
understand the burden of identity amongst the poor.
I have sure read MKG but not Dr. BRA. May be it's time I pick some
books by/on Dr. BRA.
However, we are still not near providing any "concrete" solution in
place of UID.
There is no problem of identity in the first place.
At least they claim they have some goal and vision to
reaching out to those poorest of poor and help them.
LAMAO. Those liars have taken all of you for a real 150000Cr ride. Well at
last count Rs.1500Cr + 750Cr ride. HAHAHA.
What are we
offering? (except spending time on discussing endlessly the futility
As i said The problem to all of
the "poor", "corruption", "banking", "inclusion",
"exclusion" etc is not
identity. What we are doing is trying to prevent spending tax payers money on
a stupid scheme which has no definition, ill thought goals and wholly fake
promises. That in itself will be a commendable achievement.
There are a whole plethora of problems that have a large number of diverse and
regionally localised causes. One cannot ask a pointless question of "What is
the solution?" without defining each of these problems and causes. Then one
can answer with a number of specific solutions.
Not this snake oil, cure all "identity is the root of everything", based on a
simple simon question and c grade movie inspired technology.
Can we, as community (Free/Open Source) offer something credible?
Sure. Define the problems.
Even for the case of verifying identity, a web of trust based on signed keys
would be utterly trivial to implement, cost perhaps 400 cr for a 100%
coverage, keeps control with the individual and has none of the
vulnerabilities and threats inherent in a centralised system. Dr. Nagarjuna
already has most of it in place.
Of course this system does not make fancy claims of crating heaven on earth.
Merely establishes a web of trust.