On 22 November 2011 10:17, <jtd(a)mtnl.net.in> wrote: There appears to be not one, but TWO points on which jtd and I agree 100% :-) Aadhar is a massive money sink that MMS and his cohorts have imposed upon the unsuspecting billion point two of us. It is jostling for space among things like the nuke deal, BRAI, AI bailouts etc. at the top of the list of India-unfriendly things our UPA friends have come up with in the recent past. Binand

On Tuesday 22 November 2011 18:25:02 Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote: The core "deduplication" application, template creation, authentication algos are closed AND patented. Besides they have been lying through their teeth from day 0.

On Wednesday 23 November 2011 08:12:26 Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote: No. You are assuming that everything after you send a packet to the backend is proper. Read about alcohol breath analysers and cases filed in the US against the mfg. to get an idea.

As a nation, we need a ID system that can be trusted ASAP. With a system like this, a person can not have multiple IDs. At the moment, situation of IDs like License is so bad even government is not willing to accept that as valid.

So that one person can not have multiple IDs. We need this or any other biometric based system. In current system, it is very easy to create fake identities. With biometric systems, a locality of 1,000 people can not have more than 1,000 ration cards or other IDs that entitle them ti various Govt subsidies or grants.

PDS is only one of the IDs, every ID has this problem. For example, Driving License. At the moment, its futile to confiscate someone's License since that person can go to a different RTO and get a License made there. Similarly, one person can get multiple PAN cards and manipulate IPOs. A centralized biometric system can solve some of these issues. It does not matter if that system if aadhar or something else, but need that soon. -Shamit

On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 09:15 +0530, Shamit Verma wrote: I could possibly understand why the govt could want your fingerprints on file, but I strongly object to them having mine - I am not a criminal (or at least I have not been caught yet) -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

On 24 November 2011 13:54, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: Government should not run with only cost control as the objective. Government has a bunch of legal, social and constitutional obligations that often trump cost considerations. Binand

On 11/24/2011 01:54 PM, Shamit Verma wrote: Do they simply store prints or do they have software and a process that identifies difference in prints against the same name as well as similarity of prints against different names? Everytime a new entry is made, it has to be checked with all existing records. I agree. Centralisation makes compilation of inputs and analysis of data easier. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On Thursday 24 November 2011 09:15:44 Shamit Verma wrote: LOL. Your faith and ignorance of biometrics, identity, entitlements, corruption, governance, etc is touching. Please get an education on these before faffing. You might start here http://thinkinganarchist.blogspot.com/2011/10/uinique-identity-biometrics-a… and follow the youtube, rediff and cryptome.org links. That should bury your faith on biometrics.

On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 19:21 +0530, Sameep wrote: one thing nice about this list is the touching faith people have in the innate goodness of human beings in general and govt officials in particular. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

On 11/25/2011 11:54 AM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: As long as no individual however powerful is exempted and everyone is treated equally in the UID system, this system is necessary for a democracy to be healthy. If bio-metrics means dog tagging and nose ringing, why do people use it for security systems? -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/25/2011 11:09 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: The point is that bio-metrics is a scientific biological identity not something sub human. With a population of more than 1 billion people, any National level scheme will be huge and expensive. If the current process of doing this ID is wrong then experts can suggest better alternatives to achieve the desired results. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 25 November 2011 22:24, Rony <gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote: If a biometric system is needed for a democracy to be "healthy", how did we get along without it so far? How are the other healthy democracies of the world, that have said resounding NOs to such systems, functioning? This "biometrics is a must" is a mirage. The only purpose the government wants the UID for is wholescale snooping of the general populace. Everything else - improved PDS, improved security, improved efficiency etc. - are all hogwash. Mr. Chidambaram has another, still more draconian proposal that he is pushing through - it is called the "National Intelligence Grid". Take a look: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2081647.ece Now imagine the scenario in the country where Aadhar and Natgrid talk to each other. Do you think anyone (forget even people like Anna Hazare) can survive as an independent-thinking and opinion-forming free and proud individual in such an eventuality? The combination is exactly what George Orwell predicted in his novel, 1984 - go read the book too. Binand

2011/11/26 Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) <raju(a)linux-delhi.org>rg>: That was a different issue. It was about issuing IDs specifically to Asian migrants. National ID is issued to all residents of country without discrimination. In a perfect world, ID would be issued only to "legitimate" residents.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: Issue them ID. Just like other countries with national IDs handle this issue. Till you are a visitor, your visa or TAX ID serves as ID. Once you get resident status you get national ID like SSN. Countries like US have already started capturing fingerprints and hand geometry of ALL legal visitors. And its trivial for federal law enforcement to validate an I-90 in minutes because of this system.

On Saturday 26 November 2011 12:59:01 Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: He sounds like a UIDAI mouthpiece. All the same rubbish spouted by their spokespersons.

On 26 November 2011 14:04, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: We don't need another ID solely for the purpose of pumping huge amounts of public money into it. All we need to do is to fix the loopholes in the existing ones. You still have not given a coherent reason WHY we need one. One that cannot be solved by tightening up existing controls. Binand

On 26 November 2011 14:11, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: I explained a while back that the government should operate a level higher than the usual maximise(profit = revenue - cost) motif. The purpose of government is not to return dividends to shareholders. The government has a bunch of legal, social and constitutional obligations that may require it to spend more money than required. For example, by your argument the government can decide that cost of holding elections can be reduced by holding them only once every 10 years. Binand

On 26 November 2011 14:44, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: Right. And let the constitution and legal framework all be damned, right? Binand

On 11/26/2011 02:09 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Isn't the UID the process of tightening up existing controls? -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/26/2011 12:59 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Check their history till they can be cleared. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/27/2011 09:39 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Certain allowances will always have to be given for those below poverty line who are cut off from civilisation. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/27/2011 12:42 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: No 2 persons will have the same bio-id so it should not matter. Even if they give false names, they will have to stick to it for the rest of their official lives. Who qualifies for and deserves Aadhar? -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 12:25 +0530, Rony wrote: which is the majority of the population -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

2011/11/26 Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) <raju(a)linux-delhi.org>rg>: Not sure how did you get that impression. For example, you can not even get a post-paid cell phone or credit card without SSN. SSN was not created for this purpose, but in absence of national ID it has become a de-facto national ID.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: That is the point, your employment + credit is linked to SSN. So, if you want to work (legally) or get any form of credit (including house on rent) you need this ID.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: Lets hear from horse's mouth: "The SSN was originally devised to keep an accurate record of each individual’s earnings, and to subsequently monitor benefits paid under the Social Security program. However, use of the Social Security number as a general identifier has grown to the point where it is the most commonly used and convenient identifier for all types of record-keeping systems in the United States." http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/78 Jut like you cant get a job without PAN in India, SSN is required so that employer can notify IRS about tax. Companies that rent apartments need to check credit history so, most will decline unless you have good credit rating (queried by SSN) or are willing to put up much higher deposit.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 4:18 PM, kenneth gonsalves <lawgon(a)thenilgiris.com> wrote: How do they file tax? By getting a job I mean "Getting a job legally".

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:33 AM, kenneth gonsalves <lawgon(a)thenilgiris.com> wrote: How does that change the facts? That is legally every employer is supposed to deduct taxes and that can not be done unless employer knows PAN.

On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 10:40 +0530, Shamit Verma wrote: maybe where you live - not in India. All you need to do is to give a declaration to the employer that you are below the taxable limit and he will not deduct. (and in a lot of sectors even this is not necessary). Most states do not tax agricultural income. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

On Saturday 26 Nov 2011, Shamit Verma wrote: This discussion is growing more and more OT, but nothing there says that the SSN is mandatory for any purpose other than Social Security. Nor is a passport mandatory in India, nor a PAN card, nor a driver's licence nor a voter ID card. However, UIDAI is trying to make the UID mandatory for central government-provided services, the most recent example being inability to get an LPG refill (yes, refill -- not a new connection) without a UID. Anyhow, the news is that a case has been filed in the Bengaluru High Court to have the UIDAI and all its works declared illegal. The case was filed yesterday (November 25). Interesting to see what happens. Regards, -- Raj -- Raj Mathur || raju(a)kandalaya.org || GPG: http://otheronepercent.blogspot.com || http://kandalaya.org || CC68 It is the mind that moves || http://schizoid.in || D17F

On 11/26/2011 03:20 PM, Shamit Verma wrote: In the US SSN is needed for quite a lot of things. It's more like an ID card as Americans don't want a National ID. You have to have a SSN here. Swapnil

What is an ID card? Something that identifies your identity! I was only responding to the comment which said that in the US SSN is not used for anything other than IRS related issues. When we enter the US base, if we don't have the ID, SSN is asked. It's not their problem. It's what happens. :-) Swapnil

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: Yes laws allow one to deny disclosure of SSN. But law also allows denial of service in such case. So, you go to rent an apartment, company that owns the building would ask for SSN to run a credit and bankruptcy check. You are within your right to deny giving out SSN, And company is also within their right to deny apartment to you. All they need to do in case of SSN being compromised is to pay for 2 years of credit monitoring service. I have rented in three states (NY/NJ/CA) and every state's model agreement clearly states this fact. Similarly, employer would not give you a job unless he can report earnings to IRS.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: This is what US congress report says: "Section 7 of the Privacy Act does not impose any restrictions on private sector use of the SSN. Thus, private businesses and organizations may still request an individual’s SSN in exchange for goods or services, and no general federal law regulates such transactions. Private sector use of the SSN is widespread,60 including activities such as using SSNs for data exchanges to assess credit risk, tracking patient care among multiple providers, locating bankruptcy assets, and providing background checks on new employees. Many colleges and universities, and agencies that administer standardized tests such as the Scholastic Assessment Test (SAT)" http://www.privacy.wv.gov/privacy-program/Documents/CRS_Report_re_SSN_Laws.… Need for SSN is for credit checks. Unless landlord is individuals, most companies have language that is legal. Condition is to "Pass a Credit Rating Check" and that can not be done without SSN. And this report clearly states that (with references) "In some cases, an accommodation may be reached whereby a business agrees to use an identifier other than a person’s SSN, but there is no federal law that prohibits the private entity from requiring a person’s SSN as a condition to providing goods or services."

On 11/26/2011 12:18 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Ask him/her to get his/her Adhar done. This is the procedural part of the issue. Get their Adhar done. Foreign nationals have passports. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On Saturday 26 November 2011 11:24:56 Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote: I might add that SA did issue id cards, though not biometric. It was used to target people. SA was perhaps on par with Nazi Germany - another card issuer - in it's official human rights violations. More recently it was Serbia which used a national id card database in it's genocide pogrom. The case is on trial in the international courts. One of the earliest documented persecutions happened in the year of the birth of the dude JC 2500 yrs ago in Judea. National census for tax collection was the avowed goal. But it was used to target certain sects of jews. Those who fear their people are the ones who want to implement an id system.

On Thursday 24 November 2011 19:21:25 Sameep wrote: Sigh. THERE IS NO ONE AT THE FP READER TO SEE YOUR F....... FINGER.

On Friday 25 November 2011 11:57:51 Sameep wrote: Where? Auth hasnt even begin - save some miniscule, statistically insignificant pilots (the usual UIDAI ploy which will be tom tommed as a a grand success). Also read my next mail. As an interesting aside: The UIDAI specified error margins and duplicate verification system is such a hoot, that they cant even verify themselves how many false rejects or accepts are there. As per their specifications there will be well above 200 million duplicates or rejects, which translates to 200 million fakes - you dont know wether the Fprint is fake or the data is fake. Inorder to test you will have to register a statistically significant number, which is representative of our population. Then after a year or so you will have to get this same bunch to re-register. Then repeat after 1 year. Then and only then will you have meaningful data. The UIDAI has not done any such thing. Thei pilot was on 25000 people in 3 locations total 75000, and deliberately removed those with poor biometrics as "corner cases". BUT a study in Seoul by the driver licenec department found that 50% of the registered could not authenticate after a period of 2 years. Women rejects (household work) were significantly higher. I hope you dont miss th fact that these are urban middle class. Not the cattle class sub human village yokels on whose back the UIDAI crooks are making a pile. If you choose to be an idiot, that is your choice, but be an informed idiot.

On Friday 25 November 2011 18:40:32 Shamit Verma wrote: Yes. Do it with your money, not with public money. And dont make utterly nonsensical claims. If you were a company (Read Infosys), making such claims, you would get sued proper. Infosys was sued by the S'pore government when they did this. Ofcourse such niceties skips the brainless UIDAI and their supporters. YAI Read - that involves going to google or the library, and studying those - before faffing.

On Friday 25 November 2011 22:38:12 Rony wrote: So what was wrong with the old system that this one corrects?

On 25 November 2011 22:58, Rony <gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote: Let us examine this. What are the limitations of the PAN card, and how does the UID eliminate them? The PAN card (or more accurately, the PAN itself) is used to contain tax evasion. You have to quote your PAN everywhere you spend money. There are large data crunching computers that cross-link this data, and attempt to see if an individual is spending (cheques/credit cards/ATM withdrawals etc.) more than what he is earning (salary, interest, capital gains, rent...) and flag such cases for investigation. Can the UID improve on this? Remember, the finance minister is on record saying that ever since the introduction of the PAN, tax collection has gone up by so much that he could cut tax rates and still earn the government the same amount of money. How will the UID improve on this scenario where it appears to me that the card is actually working well? The other side of this story involves tax-evasion transactions (black market, hawala, whatever). People pay for goods and services in cash, fudge documents to hide it, no tax paid, hoard such cash in bank lockers and hiding places at houses, send it out of the country through the hawala route, bring it back again via the DTAA with Mauritius in the form of P-notes and such. How exactly does the UID fix this problem? Are we going to make Aadhar mandatory for all Mauritians as well? Binand

On 26 November 2011 11:49, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: This article explains how the fake PAN card is obtained. Please can you explain how the UID will stop the process? Binand

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: That plus all sorts of "benami" assets obtained with fake identities.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: If registration+financial transactions are linked to national ID, it would be more difficult to hide such activities. It would not prevent such activities, but would be one of the tools that can be used to curb.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: Being a centralized system, land purchase in name of B would be reported to Tax authorities based on national ID.They can validate if B has shown enough income to afford this land. And if he is paying taxes on that income. Similarly, PoA would have IDs of both B and A. This can again be used to track properties that are controlled by A. Right now, A can "invent" hundreds of fictitious B's since IDs do not require biometrics. ID that is used in case of property transactions happens to be PAN.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: That already happens. All property transactions are reported. But due to face PAN cards, this does not work in practice. B and A can both get as many PAN cards as they want.

On Saturday 26 November 2011 14:38:41 Shamit Verma wrote: wrote: Land registration is a state subject. IT is a central subject. Why? Do homework.

On Saturday 26 November 2011 19:29:22 Shamit Verma wrote: Roam around a leetile outside your glass cage. You might yet learn a thing or two. Do you know how much land an be purchased under multiple Rs. 30 Lakhs?. I know of one minister in the Maharashtra state cabinet holding over 1000 acres, benami. And this guy is relatively small fry. Another one's kith and kin holds proly 10% of Maharashtra. How come they never get reported. Oh btw RTIs filed say they dont hold any land or miniscule holdings. The first flawed presumption is that people dont have identity The second flawed presumption is that biometrics are unique The third flawed presumption is that biometrics are constant The fourth flawed presumption is that corruption is caused at the last mile The fifth flawed presumption is that tracing transactions will stop corruption The sixth flawed assumption is that the state is a protector The seventh flawed assumption is that data is rarely misused The eighth flawed assumption is that entitlements are refused due to lack of identity The ninth flawed assumption is that the existing id's are broken so a new one is a must The tenth flawed assumption is that issue processes can be made substantially better by tech fixes inherent in the 9th assumption I could go on forever. But it requires a greatly nuanced understanding of power, democracy, governance, history, our society and lastly technology. No amount of technology cotton wool is going to help. We havent even got around to talking of probable corruption in the UIDAI!!!! L1 technolgies the sole supplier of the core de dup and iris scan tech - there are multiple vendors, but only one tech source (an absolutely similiar situation to M$, patents, monopoliy games and underhand dealings included), has been convicted of fraud in Georgia for willfully issuing duplicate driving licences (LAMAO). The directors of this company were former homeland security officials, who awarded huge contracts to L1, and on retirement joined L1 (ROTFL at you innocent ignorants). My dear sirs Mr. NN is no innocent corporate honcho, and the UIDAI is not the god send you all think it is. It is an abomination whose hydra heads you havent even begun to see. Research the money on EDGAR and if you are clever you will learn.

On 26 November 2011 23:54, Rony <gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote: Rony: Do you know what it costs to run such a nuclear-powered submarine? Do you know what the health impact of such close proximity to a reactor is, on the sailors on board? Do you know how much the US spends on its military in a year? (hint: $680 billion in 2010, India's GDP is $1630 billion) Do you know that a submarine runs far away from nearest land mass, whereas a train runs through several urban centers? Do you know that several countries (developed world) do not allow US nuclear submarines anywhere near their coasts (Spain, for example)? Do you know that existing nuclear technology cannot be ever made safe in the way you want it to be? Do you know that the US is sitting on piles of nuclear waste, without a clue how to dispose it off? That it is willing to offer third-world countries $$$ just to buy it off? Do you know that the US nuclear industry is getting so much backlash from the home population that the only place they want to expand to is the developing world that can afford it (India, for example)? If you did not know any of the above, please don't bring the nuclear issue to this discussion. It can be discussed separately and perhaps in another forum. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=presidential-commission-se… Binand

On 11/27/2011 12:14 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: Past accidents should be used to make future systems safer, not throw them out altogether. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/27/2011 12:36 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: First the protesters get hold of proper nuclear scientists who they know, trust and can represent their views. These scientists then interact with the concerned authorities and study the plans for the plants. If they feel there is any design flaw they let it be known to the designers and ask them to make corrections or suggest corrections based on their own experience. The protesting part should come in only if the corrections are refused and there are plans to go ahead with the faulty design. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 27 November 2011 13:08, <jtd(a)mtnl.net.in> wrote: The only flaw in your argument is that a nuclear disaster would take life and nature away from the planet in its wake and not just the humans. :-) Binand

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 1:08 PM, <jtd(a)mtnl.net.in> wrote: BTW, far more number of people die in road and rail accidents in India and around the world than nuclear reactors going bust. Should we ban all road and rail travel? after all auto-mobiles and rail are also considered technology. With regards, -- --Dinesh Shah :-) Shah Micro System Pvt. Ltd. +91-98213-11906 +91-9833-TICKET http://www.shahmicro.com http://iopt.in http://crm.iopt.in Blog: http://dineshah.wordpress.com

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Binand Sethumadhavan <binand(a)gmail.com> wrote: Really? Why can the same argument apply to nuclear technology? Right Pointers/Links to those stats? Again. Figures and pointers to those studies facts please. BTW, I am no fan of incumbent PMO. In fact I don't like the governments. That is why I strongly like and advocate less government. Lesser Govt. Better Govt. :-) With regards, -- --Dinesh Shah :-) Shah Micro System Pvt. Ltd. +91-98213-11906 +91-9833-TICKET http://www.shahmicro.com http://iopt.in http://crm.iopt.in Blog: http://dineshah.wordpress.com

On Sunday 27 November 2011 23:34:27 Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Well said. There was a similiar strawman argument "more people die of shark bites than nuclear accidents''. Ofcourse ofcourse. BUT the death rate is near 100% when your boat meets with an accident in shark infested waters. And more importantly it stops with you. You see, your wife on the beach does not get killed 30 years later automagically. Unfortunately one has to deal with these type of factually wrong statements all the while.

On 28 November 2011 00:40, Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) <dineshah(a)gmail.com> wrote: Once again - you don't ban. You analyze WHY people are dying. You figure out that lack of fire fighting equipment, lack of emergency exits, insufficient crowd control etc. all contribute. You tighten these controls. You make fire license mandatory for malls and theatres. You implement quarterly inspections. You create penalties for non-compliance. And so on. The one thing you don't do is to put up a rule that one needs an Aadhar to buy a matchbox. Correct. And using nuclear reactors to generate power in a country as crowded as India is one of those "bad" usages. There certainly are "good" (for certain values of good) usages - like powering long range submarines, perhaps interplanetary exploration vehicles etc. - nobody's denying that. Binand

On Monday 28 November 2011 01:14:01 jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: a 1000 times higher in a number of cases.

On 11/28/2011 01:14 AM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: Just thinking aloud. I have always wondered why they have not build deep underground reactors so that any unfortunate accident can be contained under the soil rather than getting exposed in the air to the people. Life can go on as usual on the top without displacing people. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/28/2011 12:23 AM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: Accept the fact that Nuclear technology is here to stay. Now you have two options. One, be extreme in your views and actions and be cut off from any chances of using your knowledge to shape Govt. policies and actions. Two, follow the middle path to let projects happen but keeping in mind all safety and humanitarian aspects that will arise from them, make the Govt. comply to these first. By the way, how many nay sayers of UID on this list have actually met NN of Infosys and held long discussions on this UID matter? Has he responded negatively? -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/29/2011 11:28 AM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: I doubt if anyone of them will accept any invitations to opposing views. How have the media persons reacted to this? They could raise important questions in the papers, TV channels and compel NN and Co. to offer explanations. Whether we agree to this UID idea or not, I believe that the process to implement this should be democratic and not hushed. Otherwise it will become another Commonwealth Games fiasco. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/27/2011 01:08 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: Exactly the way software giants spread FUD. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 27 November 2011 00:01, Shamit Verma <subs.linux.mum(a)vshamit.com> wrote: Would like some authoritative reference for this. The counters at the PRS centers are still there, and are still equally crowded. How did the black marketing go down? Naive, naive, naive. All it makes is *detection* harder, because you end up looking only at the traceable ones and not at the Mauritius-routed ones. Binand

On 11/27/2011 09:48 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Computerisation and online railway booking has really made life easier for the people. Many still don't use it but that is their lookout. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On Saturday 26 November 2011 11:30:09 Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: ;-E. The fish netted if this was implemented will tear the country.

On Friday 25 November 2011 22:34:21 Rony wrote: I should have used "one" instead of "you".

On 11/25/2011 12:16 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: When the voter ID cards were made, we had to visit the designated centers and get our photograph taken on the spot. Keeping aside the bad quality of the images and the spelling mistakes in names, if the UID system IDs are taken in a proper planned manner in proper well equipped centers that the chances of wrong doing will be minimum. Every system has its risks and chances of cheating but we have to select the one that has the minimum chances of it and benefits are maximum. Electronic meters can be tampered with but they are still welcome. Wireless communication can be compromised but we cannot do without it. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/25/2011 11:02 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: No one is denying the need for proper planning and trial runs before actually implementing the system. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On 11/24/2011 06:56 PM, jtd(a)mtnl.net.in wrote: If the process of creating the id is done at a proper centers that has medical experts (need not be doctors) to check the fingers and eyes before taking the scan then this cheating will be under control. -- Freedom is a shared resource. Take some, leave the rest for others. Please trim your replies. Avoid cross posting to other lists. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Regards, Rony. http://ronybill.blogspot.com/

On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:19 +0530, Rony wrote: and I suppose that you also believe that you need to know how to drive in order to get a driving license? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

On 26 November 2011 23:09, Rony <gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote: This is what we should do. Kill the wrong process, and implement a right one. Not build another process that is equally if not more flawed on top of it and then hope that these two wrong processes will cancel out each other. Binand

On Sunday 27 November 2011 17:06:57 Dinesh Shah wrote: Oh. Is the problem defined? Or do we proceed on the brain dead assumption that people dont have identities. Identity is one that I choose to identify myself as. The state has no say in the matter. The problem the state is trying to solve is wholly of it's own invention. Which is to selectively channelise resources to it's choosen ones. Why does one need a freaking ration card to buy ration when trillions of tons of food lies rotting. Not to mention the cattle quality starvation quantity dished out in he PDS. Why do I need proof of identity to open a bank account with my money, on which the bank profits. Why does a small borrower need hundreds of docs to borrow from a bank, when trillions of Rs. of loans to sakhar karkhanas are written off? Why do I need proof of identity to enter a death trap known as public health service, as though the government was conferring luxury services. Why do I need proof to buy a freakin cell phone connection. OH oh Security. Never mind that bombs go off as and when the bombers please and the cops get rapped in court for fake encounters. Talk of manufacturing solutions to non existent problems. Cart, horse etc. Just get off this nonsense of people not having identity. The state wants to target selectively groups it may wish to confer benefits on or supress. Hence this manufactured need. The so called leakages stem from the fact that the qualification criteria for PDS, health and other entitlements are pegged so low that huge swathes of our people who should be actually entitled to these services are denied that. Not because they dont have identity, but because the state chooses to play a cynical vote / power channelling game. The ones who can "afford" better services already avail of them by paying top dollars. The utterly inhumane Rs.32/- per day per person is a case in point. It angers me no end that the richest professionals in the country along with the government are riding on the backs of the poor, without the slightest thought to the above mentioned reasons. Foisting a wholly artificial and manufactured "identity crisis", and plastering onto that all sorts of panaceas for corruption, poverty elevation, rural employment, banking etc. Not a single study has been undertaken to show that identity is the problem. Infact existing studies show that it is the native power structures and arbitrary rules that have caused the problem. Yet we insist on keeping the arbitrary rules in place and spending humongous amounts of money to climb those artificial barriers, instead of demolishing and flattening those barriers, providing equal universal access to basic neccessities of food clothes, medicine, education etc. One does not need a name to eat or learn or be nursed back to health. But one does require steely resolve to bring ones self out of ones glass tower and stand with the poorest of the poor. The last few persons to do that were M. K. Gandhi and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. One would do well to read carefully their views on our society and understand the burden of identity amongst the poor.

On 27 November 2011 22:50, Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) <dineshah(a)gmail.com> wrote: These two are warped arguments used by our security agencies to hide their lax investigation techniques. Don't you lend your phones to family/friends to make calls? A name is not something anyone owns. Why is it impossible for two Dinesh Shahs to exist in the same locality banking at the same bank? Binand

On Monday 28 November 2011 00:10:24 Dinesh Shah wrote: wrote: LOL. Wrong. It is not. You were not born with a signature nor did your genes and or nature form your signature. Biometrics refers specifically to measurement of biological characteristics inherent in living creatures, in our case humans.

On Sunday 27 November 2011 22:50:09 Dinesh Shah wrote: Very well defined: The government. Total rubbish. Caste based reservations is to ameliorate discriminatory conditions caused by society over long periods of our history. There are no religious reservations that I am aware of. There are innumerable bank accounts that have common names. They are diffrentiated by a account number. So someone opening an account as jtd cant affect my account. And yes he can do any type of transaction in that account because it is his money. When the bank has to give me a loan od etc the bank has to perform due diligence. That there are various vicarious caveats like foreign exchange imposed with wholly ulterior motives by the state is a different matter and has nothing at all to do with identity. You read half the line. You dont need tons of paper to get your loans written off if you are a politico. And 2 tons of paper wont writeoff a penny if you arent a politico. Everything to do with a certain type of identity, but definetly not the sort you think. Health insurance in KEM hospital? which universe are you living in? Public health service is free. Please spare me cheapskate statements that has no basis in facts and figures. Those calls will be a number to the 10th decimal place. And follows the exact same flawed logic of jailing everyone because of a few madcaps. Rubbish. Read my earlier statement. WOW. what a wonderfully gutter level bench mark. The UIDAI and their supporters who think that a dog tag number is a fine identity tool. Nobody has a plethora of ids, again with a miniscule minority who will easily be able to obtain multiple ids in a any new system. And i fail to see how having a plethora of documents (if that is what you are referring to) is a problem. If anything it is actually dividing the problem. Many many studies on multiple ids within a particular documents context. Guess what? atleast in the case of pds the number of duplicates was less than 8% and was easily corrected. Lobbying by NGOS and civil rights activists. And we are playing right into their hands with this UID business. People know each other very well. Infact the identity problem is non existent in our daily lives precisely because of this - relationships and trusted referrals. It is only when we bring in artificial KYC and entitlement norms that we begin to have problems. Instead of correcting these artificial barriers, tax payers money is being blown up. More importantly what ever it is that the state profeers, must be available to all without having to run through the entitlement gauntlet. Kerala state has made the PDS system universal. Everyone can avail of PDS food. Without an artificial scarcity, there is no market for corruption. Not by actually becoming poor permanently, but by living with them on the same resources and constraints, so that the real underlying reasons can be understood. Rather than glass house telescopic observations, that grandiously and gratuosly concluded that people dont have identities. There is no problem of identity in the first place. LAMAO. Those liars have taken all of you for a real 150000Cr ride. Well at last count Rs.1500Cr + 750Cr ride. HAHAHA. As i said The problem to all of the "poor", "corruption", "banking", "inclusion", "exclusion" etc is not identity. What we are doing is trying to prevent spending tax payers money on a stupid scheme which has no definition, ill thought goals and wholly fake promises. That in itself will be a commendable achievement. There are a whole plethora of problems that have a large number of diverse and regionally localised causes. One cannot ask a pointless question of "What is the solution?" without defining each of these problems and causes. Then one can answer with a number of specific solutions. Not this snake oil, cure all "identity is the root of everything", based on a simple simon question and c grade movie inspired technology. Sure. Define the problems. Even for the case of verifying identity, a web of trust based on signed keys would be utterly trivial to implement, cost perhaps 400 cr for a 100% coverage, keeps control with the individual and has none of the vulnerabilities and threats inherent in a centralised system. Dr. Nagarjuna already has most of it in place. Of course this system does not make fancy claims of crating heaven on earth. Merely establishes a web of trust.

On Monday 28 November 2011 00:55:23 Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Links links. I must read this.

On Monday 28 November 2011 01:14:12 Binand Sethumadhavan wrote: Thanks. Apologies to all for our transgressions in this thread.

On Sunday 27 Nov 2011, Dinesh Shah wrote: This is the wrong list for that. The problems that the UIDAI claims to solve are social, political, economic, systemic. For those, you need solutions that are social, political, economic and systemic. Throwing technology at a problem doesn't magically solve it. As someone high up in the UIDAI once said, "When you have corruption and you bring in technology to prevent it, all you end up with is high-tech corruption." To take an example: one of the issues that Aadhar will completely eradicate, as per NN, is the NREGA misuse of funds. However, this is completely ignoring the ground realities. NREGA disentitlement occurs in one of three ways: - Coercion: The sarpanch's goondas stand outside the disbursement office and take your money once you have collected it from the NREGA outlet. - Collusion: The sarpanch and you agree that he will enter your name as having worked the day, you keep half the money and give half to him. - Identity: The sarpanch enter a completely fictitious person into the NREGA records and someone continues to collect money on this person's behalf. 70 to 80% of abuse of NREGA is in the first two categories, which UID can do nothing about. If it does work (highly unlikely considering the lack of proper testing) all it would impact is 20 to 30% of NREGA abuse. To take the other much-touted aspect of Aadhar, terrorism control, just look at what happened in MP in July this year, when a SIMI activist was captured by the cops after a shoot-out in which 2 policemen died. When the authorities traced back to his house, they found a valid UID card with a fake name in his possession. The terrorists know how to get fake UIDs, and will get them whenever they want, while for people like you and I, who abide by the law, it will become just another vehicle for state oppression and control. Expecting technology to magically solve India's problems is like throwing atta, ghee, sugar and dry fruits into a pan, heating it and expecting laddoos as a result. The problems are too deep-rooted and widespread to be resolved by naive application of this technology or that -- if you really want change, stop writing code and start a social or political campaign. Regards, -- Raj -- Raj Mathur || raju(a)kandalaya.org || GPG: http://otheronepercent.blogspot.com || http://kandalaya.org || CC68 It is the mind that moves || http://schizoid.in || D17F

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan &lt;binand(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Sorry to be the grinch here but can we just list this thread die ? Please. I'm sure that there are other better and apt forums to dissect UIDAI in threadbare details along the lines of legality, focus, technology architecture, openness and reason to exist. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay <http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog/>

On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 14:44 +0530, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote: I think every one has run out of steam - probably this evening's batch of replies from you-know-who will be the last. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves

On Monday 28 November 2011 09:24 AM, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote: Why? As the subject says, we are looking at particular piece of tech is FOSS or Proprietary. And if the UID project IS proprietary we must offer an FOSS alternative. Just saying the UID/Aadhar is solution for non-existing problem is not going to make it go away. UIDAI's claims may be over ambitious and may be even misleading. That does not mean technology does not solve social, political, economic and systemic problems. In fact technology is and should be used to solve all the above problem. It is really strange that FOSS community (at least in India) takes ostrich like stance and when proprietary world (driven by money) comes out with a solution (for real or imaginary problems) we cry fowl. So what's wrong in plugging that 20/30% (7875 to 11813 Crores for Year 2010-11 - http://nrega.nic.in/netnrega/mpr_ht/nregampr.aspx ) of leakage with the help of the technology? Why we insist that technology has to offer 100% of the solution to every problem then only we should spend/invest in technology? Unfortunately, we always tend to mix up with ID and Security. You will not get laddoos but at least you will get sheera which as tasty as laddoos. :-) Once again dismissing that technology does not bring change is as hollow as claiming that the Internet is neither useful nor revolutionary in bringing out real change. So is for each and every technology we use everyday - from electricity to tele-comm to auto mobiles and air-crafts and even nuclear bombs! BTW, I do not support UIDAI in the current form (I have neither applied for or given an Aadhar Card till date) and asking my community to come out with solution (to real or imaginary problem). Can FOSS people stand up to this? With regards, -- --Dinesh Shah :-) Shah Micro System Pvt. Ltd. +91 98213-11906 +91 9833-TICKET http://www.shahmicro.com http://iopt.in Blog: http://dineshah.wordpress.com/ Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dineshah/

On Monday 28 November 2011 22:29:43 Rony wrote: Crap.