Here is RMS' reaction on coming to know about the recent blockages by Indian ISPs.
Cheers, Debarshi
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org Date: 18-Jul-2006 19:07 Subject: Re: Indian governments blocking blogspot, geocities, and other sites. To: Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray debarshi.ray@gmail.com
Thanks.
Doesn't India recognize human rights that would prohibit this censorship?
On 7/19/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 18 July 2006 16:27, Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray wrote:
Here is RMS' reaction on coming to know about the recent blockages by Indian ISPs.
I know it sucks but what is TOR good for then ;)
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
Regards, NMK.,
On 19/07/06 00:26 +0530, Nadeem M. Khan wrote:
On 7/19/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 18 July 2006 16:27, Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray wrote:
Here is RMS' reaction on coming to know about the recent blockages by Indian ISPs.
I know it sucks but what is TOR good for then ;)
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
You *could* ask for the repeal of a fairly large number of laws, and qualifications to article 19(a) of the Indian constitution. Got the time and/or money to spare?
Devdas Bhagat
On 19-Jul-06, at 8:52 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
You *could* ask for the repeal of a fairly large number of laws, and qualifications to article 19(a) of the Indian constitution. Got the time and/or money to spare?
this is not about democracy - it is about stupidity. Some specific sites were to be blocked (what good that would do no one knows) so the isps responded by blocking en masse
On 19/07/06 10:55 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: <snip>
this is not about democracy - it is about stupidity. Some specific sites were to be blocked (what good that would do no one knows) so the isps responded by blocking en masse
The ISPs nullrouted the destination IPs. They did not proxy all the traffic.
Devdas Bhagat
On 7/19/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
this is not about democracy - it is about stupidity. Some specific sites were to be blocked (what good that would do no one knows) so the isps responded by blocking en masse
Here's a list of sites blocked. I don't think it's complete, but the comments in the article are interesting.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/8806.html
One question though, is it possible at all to block individual blogs? One of the ISPs said that its technologically infeasible (not impossible, I'm guessing at best) to block individual blogs. if so, why not have a discussion with the DoT over it and get it sorted out? But then I guess ISPs don't care as much.
Siddhesh
On 19-Jul-06, at 11:04 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
this is not about democracy - it is about stupidity. Some specific sites were to be blocked (what good that would do no one knows) so the isps responded by blocking en masse
The ISPs nullrouted the destination IPs. They did not proxy all the traffic.
what does this mean (not being sarcastic, really want to know)
On 19/07/06 11:50 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 19-Jul-06, at 11:04 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
this is not about democracy - it is about stupidity. Some specific sites were to be blocked (what good that would do no one knows) so the isps responded by blocking en masse
The ISPs nullrouted the destination IPs. They did not proxy all the traffic.
what does this mean (not being sarcastic, really want to know)
Pre-requisites to understanding this: The OSI model.
ISPs are basically organisations which move packets around. They do this at the network layer (layer 3), which on the Internet is IP. Routers can parse packet headers a bit deeper, to layer 4 (transport - TCP/UDP).
HTTP is a layer 7 protocol. This implies that it is encapsulated inside the layer 4 envelope, which a router is *not* optimised to look at. You need a proxy for this job.
So unless your ISP has a transparent proxy (ideally, truly transparent - spoofing client IPs and breaking networking), it isn't really feasible for the ISP to block a name based site.
They could hijack DNS if needed, but that needs far, far more clue than the average Indian ISP can afford. This is also technologically fragile, and *generally* not recommended in an ISP environment.
When a subnet is null-routed, all packets sent to that network are discarded. In this case, the network was a single IP. All subdomains of blogspot.com point to the same IP, and hence were blocked.
Devdas Bhagat
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
anny idea why are they blocking blogs ?
Harsh
On Wednesday 19 July 2006 09:38 am, Harsh Busa wrote:
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
anny idea why are they blocking blogs ?
Security u see. U know the terorist are tech savvy. Yay no ordinary people these fellows. So block public communication after the event.. Things like cell network, landlines, net access, blogs - after all it's those rascals who keep criticising all our security measures who run blogs. So we have stupid schemes to blow up tax payers money faster han any terriost can say blast by the idiots who run and administer this country. schemes like metal detectors and cops peering into your chaadis at railway stations. Or even better SNIFFER DOGS in local trains. All this in lieu of intelligence and application of mind by the security agencies. Disaster recovery - what's that. Securing the railway tracks - u must be joking, removal of illegal immigrants - arrest this fellow they are the VOTE BANK and the money bank too. Ablity to seal the city - ofcourse we can after 3 days notice period.
OK OK sundry polticos demand 2 minutes of permanent silence while u watch TV pontifications by greeat men like Shaker Suman and admen who do not know the S of security. And do please wait patiently for the next disaster.
On 7/19/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Security u see. U know the terorist are tech savvy. Yay no ordinary people these fellows. So block public communication after the event..
Well, actualy, I read one of the news paper articles and it clearly states the reason for trying to block the blogs. Blogs, unlike email conversations, cannot be traced to the original IP addresses. Hence this step. I am sure the government has hi tech sleuths working on finding a way to track this before they open it up again.
I also saw the same reasoning being given in blocking voice chats and voip calling though non-licensed providers like yahoo, msn, google, skype, etc. The licensed providers have to clear some security requirements and hence are more traceable.
Just stating what i read.
- Navneet
On 7/19/06, Navneet Karnani navneetkarnani@gmail.com wrote:
the government has hi tech sleuths working on finding a way to track this
If the government hi tech sleuths would have pondered a bit longer they would have realized that such censorship is pointless as it is still possible to post articles. And one can read them too using one of the many methods that have come up so far (pkblogs, anonymizer, etc.).
Siddhesh
On Wednesday 19 July 2006 13:19, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If the government hi tech sleuths would have pondered a bit longer they would have realized that such censorship is pointless as it is still possible to post articles. And one can read them too using one of the many methods that have come up so far (pkblogs, anonymizer, etc.).
TOR!!! TOR!!! TOR!!! The Onion Router and Privoxy! Check it out. Anonymizers nowhere! :/
On 19/07/06 13:02 +0530, Navneet Karnani wrote:
On 7/19/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Security u see. U know the terorist are tech savvy. Yay no ordinary people these fellows. So block public communication after the event..
Well, actualy, I read one of the news paper articles and it clearly states the reason for trying to block the blogs. Blogs, unlike email conversations, cannot be traced to the original IP addresses. Hence this step. I am sure
*REALLY*? I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked! That all these blogging sites don't maintain webserver logs. And that such logs won't be made available on request (it does take effort to file for a subpoena for the information though).
the government has hi tech sleuths working on finding a way to track this before they open it up again.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Where was the joke warning before this?
I also saw the same reasoning being given in blocking voice chats and voip calling though non-licensed providers like yahoo, msn, google, skype, etc. The licensed providers have to clear some security requirements and hence are more traceable.
It doesn't matter. Nothing stops the criminals from setting up Asterisk (or a Cisco call manager) and routing their calls around.
Just stating what i read.
Learn the technology first. The government is *clueless*.
Devdas Bhagat
On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 14:18 +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 19/07/06 13:02 +0530, Navneet Karnani wrote:
On 7/19/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Security u see. U know the terorist are tech savvy. Yay no ordinary people these fellows. So block public communication after the event..
Well, actualy, I read one of the news paper articles and it clearly states the reason for trying to block the blogs. Blogs, unlike email conversations, cannot be traced to the original IP addresses. Hence this step. I am sure
*REALLY*? I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked! That all these blogging sites don't maintain webserver logs. And that such logs won't be made available on request (it does take effort to file for a subpoena for the information though).
the government has hi tech sleuths working on finding a way to track this before they open it up again.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Where was the joke warning before this?
I also saw the same reasoning being given in blocking voice chats and voip calling though non-licensed providers like yahoo, msn, google, skype, etc. The licensed providers have to clear some security requirements and hence are more traceable.
It doesn't matter. Nothing stops the criminals from setting up Asterisk (or a Cisco call manager) and routing their calls around.
Just stating what i read.
Learn the technology first. The government is *clueless*.
Devdas Bhagat
tut.tut. dvb, easy there. let's not go massacre the poor innnocent for believing everything the newspaper prints :)
-gabin
On 19-Jul-06, at 9:38 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
anny idea why are they blocking blogs ?
govt gave a list of a few specific blogs to be blocked - presumably by terrorists. So the isps responded by blocking the whole site. Like if they wanted osama.livejournal.com to be blocked, the isps responding by blocking livejournal itself
On Wednesday 19 July 2006 10:58 am, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 19-Jul-06, at 9:38 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
anny idea why are they blocking blogs ?
govt gave a list of a few specific blogs to be blocked - presumably by terrorists. So the isps responded by blocking the whole site. Like if they wanted osama.livejournal.com to be blocked, the isps responding by blocking livejournal itself
Actually that could be one of the sources of information. Instead they shut out the only clue that the terrorists are making available. God our cops are living in a different universe.
This is the worst kind of censorship. Are we turning into a communist state. Tomorrow they may ban the internet. Atleast we would match this censorship with China if not anything else. Is there an option to file a PIL against such blocking of freedom of speech
Thanks Ninad
On 7/19/06, िऩऩाद freeninad@gmail.com wrote:
This is the worst kind of censorship. Are we turning into a communist state. Tomorrow they may ban the internet. Atleast we would match this censorship with China if not anything else. Is there an option to file a PIL against such blocking of freedom of speech
There is nothing even remotely "communist" about censorship. Propaganda is to democracy what violence is to dictatorship. To fully understand what I mean and how the state controls the "popular media" see noam chomsky's "Manufacturing consent" documentary.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4107009325838872008
-- Vinayak
On Wednesday 19 July 2006 03:04 pm, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
On 7/19/06, िऩऩाद freeninad@gmail.com wrote:
This is the worst kind of censorship. Are we turning into a communist state. Tomorrow they may ban the internet. Atleast we would match this censorship with China if not anything else. Is there an option to file a PIL against such blocking of freedom of speech
There is nothing even remotely "communist" about censorship. Propaganda is to democracy what violence is to dictatorship. To fully understand what I mean and how the state controls the "popular media" see noam chomsky's "Manufacturing consent" documentary.
Which is why states get all twisted about peer to peer thingies. Blogs have a similiar characteristic -widely dispersed sources and destinations. Very difficult to manipulate by readily available state methods - so ban them at the drop of a hat. And the current terrorist tactics are of very similiar nature - no central controlling body - just like minded maniacs doing maniacl things independently. So ban SIMI and Lashkar e xyz - they diligently read the govt gazette and will dutifully erase themselves u know. The weakest spot (if at all) is money. In a state as corrupt as ours it is trivial to transfer a few lacs. And techno-terrorist just need to tap some credit cards to get cash or raid a few jeweller stores in Hyderabad or make an insurance claim using false identity or maybe join a BPO for a year. Infinite means and infinite targets. Planes ya secure the airport, no local trains and metros, yikes could be the cab, or the bus, no the panwallah, god it's the temples, ganesh chaturthi definetly that, schools shit it's schools and colleges. Very difficult these slimy guys. So ban the blogs and sundry organisations and make a BEEG noise in the press so clueless public and neta sleep a deep sleep.
Thebottom line is that u should have started gathering intelligence and preparing in 1993. Then pompous cop might have had an outside chance of preventing an attack. And u would definetly have been able to get hold of the perperators instead of sounding like a clueless schmuck and asking the public to observe two minutes silence. You should have had everbody screaming their heads off
On Tuesday 18 July 2006 18:56, Nadeem M. Khan wrote:
Geocities too? Thats bad. Is this going to last? Surely, there must be something we can do. We're in a democracy afterall.
See todays TOI. Media wakes up after such a long time! My ISP has blocked blogs for about a week now :(
On 7/18/06, Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray debarshi.ray@gmail.com wrote:
Here is RMS' reaction on coming to know about the recent blockages by Indian ISPs.
blogs are blocked . porn is not . so govt trys to say . porn is good blogs are not .
mumbaihelp.blogspot.com and tsunamihelp.blogspot have been appluaded for their contribution in the past ! ...
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
regards harsh
Cheers, Debarshi
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org Date: 18-Jul-2006 19:07 Subject: Re: Indian governments blocking blogspot, geocities, and other sites. To: Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray debarshi.ray@gmail.com
Thanks.
Doesn't India recognize human rights that would prohibit this censorship?
On 7/20/06, Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
Censorship is wrong but that's another matter. The govt order was pretty clear about the list of blogs to block. But some overzealous ISPs tried to be clever (stupid ?) and blocked the whole domain. They basically fudged the implementation. BSNL and VSNL did the blocking right but Reliance and Spectranet didn't.
The good thing out of this whole fiasco is we now know which ISPs have better personnel (I am speaking relatively :) and which ones to choose when renewing our account.
Also the govt officials will be more careful due to the media coverage given to this whole issue.
The blog blockade will be lifted after 48 hours according to this article on rediff. It also has the list of blocked sites. http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/19blogs.htm
-- Vinayak
On 20-Jul-06, at 1:11 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
They basically fudged the implementation. BSNL and VSNL did the blocking right but Reliance and Spectranet didn't.
bsnl blocked the whole of blogspot
On 7/20/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On 20-Jul-06, at 1:11 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
They basically fudged the implementation. BSNL and VSNL did the blocking right but Reliance and Spectranet didn't.
bsnl blocked the whole of blogspot
BSNL dataone, in bangalore, chennai and some more cities now started allowing blogspot and typepad
See: http://censorship.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_ISPs_that_seem_to_have_blocked_blog...
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On 20-Jul-06, at 12:50 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
which cant be done
On 20/07/06 09:06 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 20-Jul-06, at 12:50 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
which cant be done
It *can*. It isn't impossible. Just economically infeasible.
Devdas Bhagat
On 20-Jul-06, at 2:50 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thursday 20 July 2006 03:36, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 20-Jul-06, at 12:50 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
which cant be done
why?
devdas said so
On Thursday 20 July 2006 15:00, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 20-Jul-06, at 2:50 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thursday 20 July 2006 03:36, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 20-Jul-06, at 12:50 AM, Harsh Busa wrote:
saw on some TV channel that govt is refining the order to only certain blogs of blogspot and parts of other sites.
which cant be done
why?
devdas said so
i'm lost :O why exactly cant subdomains be blocked?
On 7/21/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
i'm lost :O why exactly cant subdomains be blocked?
That's probably because subdomains do not have unique IPs. I think you may have to request the domain owner to disable particular subdomains.
Is there any other way?
Regards, Siddhesh
On Thursday 20 July 2006 17:10, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
That's probably because subdomains do not have unique IPs. I think you may have to request the domain owner to disable particular subdomains.
Is there any other way?
well all isps have transparent proxies right? well they can block all urls on the proxy, can't they? well i guess squid can do it...
On Friday 21 July 2006 07:40, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 20/07/06 22:54 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
<snip>
well all isps have transparent proxies right?
No.
well then most do. dont they? atleast the most irritating ones have ( *hint* 7star *hint* ) :P. IMO it wont be that costly or difficult for ISPs to setup transparent proxies :)
On 21/07/06 16:35 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Friday 21 July 2006 07:40, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 20/07/06 22:54 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
<snip>
well all isps have transparent proxies right?
No.
well then most do. dont they? atleast the most irritating ones have ( *hint* 7star *hint* ) :P. IMO it wont be that costly or difficult for ISPs to setup transparent proxies :)
It is that costly and that difficult to setup proxies for large nunmbers of users. Just ask an AOL engineer.
Devdas Bhagat
-
Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Gabin Kattukaran -
Harsh Busa -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Nadeem M. Khan -
Navneet Karnani -
Pushparajan V -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Vinayak Hegde -
िऩऩाद