since it is a list custom to comment on commercial mails, i would just like to remind you that the hottest selling books at java developer conferences are those on RubyOnRails. And quite a few are migrating to Django too (no book out yet)

You may find it interesting that ruby on rails is still not used in Enterprise applications. Java is still the dominant platform there along with .NET.

- Navneet

Sometime Today, NK cobbled together some glyphs to say:

Enterprise applications. Java is still the dominant platform there along with .NET.

Any crappy programmer can do java and .net, and they're cheap too.

Sometime on Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 12:38:30AM +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar said:

...

Any crappy programmer can do java and .net, and they're cheap too.

yes, real programmers code in C. Realer one's code in assembly and the realest code in binary ;-)

Realest programmers take an year to complete project, realer ones complete in one month, and real programmers complete in 1 week.

Anurag

-------------------------------

No boss. Realest of realest programmers dont need C, Assembly or Binary. The computer just knows what its supposed to do :) They program it telepathically ;)

------------------------------- I must say this was a very lame attempt at trying add some humour. The thing about humour is, that you should not have to try. :) abhi

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On 1/24/06, Philip Tellis philip.tellis@gmx.net wrote:

Sometime Today, NK cobbled together some glyphs to say:

...

Enterprise applications. Java is still the dominant platform there along with .NET.

Any crappy programmer can do java and .net, and they're cheap too.

philip why are flaming ! ...

--

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On Tuesday 24 Jan 2006 10:27 pm, Navneet Karnani wrote:

...

since it is a list custom to comment on commercial mails, i would just like to remind you that the hottest selling books at java developer conferences are those on RubyOnRails. And quite a few are migrating to Django too (no book out yet)

You may find it interesting that ruby on rails is still not used in Enterprise applications. Java is still the dominant platform there along with .NET.

what exactly is an enterprise application?

On Wednesday 25 Jan 2006 9:43 am, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:

Enterprise application is any software application that is designed to be used enterprise-wide. More accurately, it is a software that is using a centralised database and operated from different offices, different lans, wans, etc. These terms apply to large companies where there are multiple networks, multiple offices and the same application and data must be used and access from all locations or at least by a number of people.

so, would these two qualify as enterprise applications: http://google.com http://yahoo.com

just asked, because they appear to be fairly popular and dont seem to be using .net or java

On Wednesday 25 Jan 2006 11:54 am, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:

I guess you are proving that it is not easy to define enterprise applications and that is why it is so much misused.

'enterprise application' is a term used by advocates of oracle, M$, high funda java etc to put down proponents of scripting languages - apparently they think that web applications built with scripting languages are made by kids fooling around with frontpage and stuck together with chewing gum. Take a look at google adsense. If that is not large scale enterprise ...

--- SeekingGyan linuxlinux@gmail.com wrote:

On 1/25/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:

...

'enterprise application' is a term used by advocates of oracle, M$, high funda java etc to put down proponents of scripting languages - apparently they think that web applications built with scripting languages are made by kids fooling around with frontpage and stuck together with chewing gum. Take a look at google adsense. If that is not large scale enterprise ...

this is the 16th mail on something that deserved no life ! ... anyone betting on how long this will drag ?

hrb

You dont say!!!!....Thank you for stating the obvious, but I think everyone is aware of that and just fooling around because tomorrow is a holiday and they'll catch up on all the lost time today.

But seriously, now would be a good time to get those resumes coming in. thank you, abhi

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On 1/25/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:

On Wednesday 25 Jan 2006 2:40 pm, Abhishek Daga wrote:

...

...

betting on how long this will drag ?

hrb

You dont say!!!!....Thank you for stating the obvious, but I think everyone is aware of that and just fooling around because tomorrow is a holiday and they'll catch up on all the lost time today.

i fail to see how a discussion on frameworks for enterprise level development is off topic or a waste of time

start a new thread coz it cant be called commercial

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Satya wrote:

On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:43:10AM +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:

...

Enterprise application is any software application that is designed to be used enterprise-wide. More accurately, it is a software that is using a centralised database and operated from different offices, different lans, wans, etc. These terms apply to large companies where there are multiple networks, multiple offices and the same application and data must be used and access from all locations or at least by a number of people.

An example would be the CRM systems and accounting system or an integrated ordering + inventroy + billing + accounting system (ERP ?)

They are also written by companies who refuse to let the "enterprise" application talk to any other software you may write -- no interoperability -- unless you pay them umpteen thousand dollars for an upgrade module.

If it's web-enabled, usually it's just an ActiveX control. IE-only.

vTiger (CRM), SugarCRM, CKERP (Groupware, Accounts, inventory, etc), WebERP (Accounts, Inventory)

We use these, all open source, all web-enabled, no activeX anywhere. Ofcourse, KG says they should not be used in enterprise environment as they are php based and therefore not secured.

There is another one called Compaire, but have not had time to use it. That is java + oracle based, but opensourced and webbased.

It depends on what you plan to use and what use you can make of it. Please remember that most of the applications actually running in enterprise applications space are legacy applications. They had to make do with resources and codes written at a time when the concept of connecting offices accross the globe and of interoperatability was alien. Most corporate customers will think twice before even looking at a proposal that touches existing and stable legacy systems.

I know of this, as I can see what is happening to my clients who are trying to migrate from legacy to new applications. I am quiet sure if the HODs had their way, they would dump the modern enterprise application software and go back to the legacy, even with its limitations. Just the thought of having to test each and every module and cross check output of thousands of different documents in the new software is mind boggeling. We did a costing system at a pharma company that took 4 months of continious testing and efforts for the managers to be comfortable that it is giving correct and accurate information which they can present to their board and decision makers. Now they are being asked to put in the same efforts as our software is being replaced with a new one at enterprise level. They are fighting hard to keep the one we wrote 6 year ago, even when we are telling them that the new software is better (not developed by us) and we will help in testing the system and ensuring that it is giving the correct results.

This is important to know because you will face the same problems when you suggest to any client to move to open source at enterprise level. Even with a software like SAP with milti-billion dollar companies and consulting organisations standing behind them, at ground level companies are scared of changing to the new software. With an open sourced software, it is worse. From the corporate decision makers' view point, if things go wrong, what happens ? Who is reponsible ? Even if someone takes responsibility, will I be able to recover from the loss or wrong decision ? Which alternate software will I use if this stops or is dropped ? How will we get the data back ? Will I need to get people to enter all the data again ?

Understand the commercial viewpoint, because without the support of corporate commercial managers (line managers), no open source software will move forward beyond OS and abstract tools. MySQL has been accepted because they have been able to address the issues and get major vendors to support them as integrated products with their own (in case you do not know, there is a customised version of MySQL for SAP called SAPDB or something). I can not think of any other enterprise level software that has made commercial inroads.

regards Saswata

On Wednesday 25 Jan 2006 9:46 am, Abhishek Daga wrote:

will not threadjack anyone if you dont threadjack me.

this is not a threadjack. It is a fork. A threadjack (or message recycling) is where a person starts a new thread by pressing reply and putting a new subject line. A fork is acceptable, and if it continues, it is ok to change the subject line. Ahh the finer nuances of netiquette ;-)