Blocking any attachments is fine, but blocking html to favour plain text would be like buying a new computer just because your operating system doesn't support it. Why can't there be html support into procmail, mutt, etc (lynx code could provide a hint)? We're trying to get people interested in GNU/Linux, not to tell them "You are welcome, but only on our conditions. Don't use html mailing. Don't call GNU/Linux as Linux (boy do we have flame fests on that one)....".
All I heard from the mutt and procmail users here is "change mailing list policies for us because our systems don't like them". Why doesn't anyone come forward and say "lets start a mini project to incorporate html support into procmail/mutt".
The whole concept of GNU/Linux being a geeks OS only is being stressed here by saying "you gotta learn alternate (probably dificult for some) ways to express yourself by using your imagination. If you're not good enough then Linux is not for you.. go to your sucky windows".
Ban html messages and lose the initiative on getting newbies into the GLUG. Getting warning messages the first time doesn't exactly seem to be a welcoming sign for any newbie probably struggling to install the OS on his system. Let it remain an elitist group then. Made up only of GEEKS.
Regards, Siddhesh.
On 27/09/03 13:12 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote: <snip>
All I heard from the mutt and procmail users here is "change mailing list policies for us because our systems don't like them". Why doesn't anyone come forward and say "lets start a mini project to incorporate html support into procmail/mutt".
Because we use mutt just to avoid the HTML crap? Exactly what more do you express by using HTML? All that you really end up doing is not getting your message through to the people who can really help you. I see no reason to convert a 2KB mail into a 5KB one which gives no additional information and actually creates a lack of clarity at the readers end.
The whole concept of GNU/Linux being a geeks OS only is being stressed here by saying "you gotta learn alternate (probably dificult for some)
Difficult? Only if you use a mail client even more braindead than the ones from Microsoft (which can do plain text. Plain text is the default in Outlook 2003 as well).
ways to express yourself by using your imagination. If you're not good enough then Linux is not for you.. go to your sucky windows".
Sure, if you choose not to be polite on a mailing list, we can choose not to listen to you. Most people posting here seem to understand that plain text is better.
Ban html messages and lose the initiative on getting newbies into the GLUG. Getting warning messages the first time doesn't exactly seem to be a welcoming sign for any newbie probably struggling to install the OS on
Why? Perhaps we do not want to encourage stupidity? I do think that people need to learn to use computers, just because a general purpose computer is necessarily a complex device.
his system. Let it remain an elitist group then. Made up only of GEEKS.
Unix is user friendly. Its just picky about its friends.
Devdas Bhagat
I vote for blocking non-text messages.
But also believe that we can try out for some alternatives like giving two warnings to the user.
Or say can we have a small html parser/stripper which basically just ignores everything but text ? we can always put this script/module in our mailing list which parses each incoming mail ? (I hope that is not tooo much of overload for our mailman)
Regards, Ranjeet ---------------------------------------------------------------- The more we disagree, the more chance there is that at least one of us is right. ----------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Siddhesh Poyarekar spake thusly:
Next LUG meet: 11 Oct 2003 around 4 pm - VJTI Mech Dept
Blocking any attachments is fine, but blocking html to favour plain text would be like buying a new computer just because your operating system doesn't support it. Why can't there be html support into procmail, mutt, etc (lynx code could provide a hint)? We're trying to get people interested in GNU/Linux, not to tell them "You are welcome, but only on our conditions. Don't use html mailing. Don't call GNU/Linux as Linux (boy do we have flame fests on that one)....".
I dont care if my next door idjut does not use GNU/Linux. I dont care if everyone in my building used Windowz. /I/ am subscribed to his list and read it. HTML does not add *anything* to it while increasing the mail size unnecessarily. My mail reader can take care of HTML very easily : either strip it off with one keystroke or display it using a html renderer. But I gain absolutely nothing from the html. These are message exchanges -- of information and maybe sometimes wisdom. Text suffices.
All I heard from the mutt and procmail users here is "change mailing list policies for us because our systems don't like them". Why doesn't anyone come forward and say "lets start a mini project to incorporate html support into procmail/mutt".
you dont get the point. People /dont/ like HTML. I dont. Not in emails. I like my usual plain proportional text messages which are easy on the eye. My email client can very beautifully colorise them according to the quoting depth. etc.etc.
The whole concept of GNU/Linux being a geeks OS only is being stressed here by saying "you gotta learn alternate (probably dificult for some) ways to express yourself by using your imagination. If you're not good enough then Linux is not for you.. go to your sucky windows".
damn right. But where did you get the silly idea that using plain text is "probably difficult" than using HTML ? If anything it is simpler.
Ban html messages and lose the initiative on getting newbies into the GLUG. Getting warning messages the first time doesn't exactly seem to be a welcoming sign for any newbie probably struggling to install the OS on his system. Let it remain an elitist group then. Made up only of GEEKS.
Interested people will get in no matter how many difficulties -- and I dont see these as difficulties at all. And I would rather have 10 interested people than 1000 idiots here.
BTW other mailing lists like BLUG-* also have no HTML policy...
q u a s i wrote:
Ban html messages and lose the initiative on getting newbies into the GLUG. Getting warning messages the first time doesn't exactly seem to be a welcoming sign for any newbie probably struggling to install the OS on his system. Let it remain an elitist group then. Made up only of GEEKS.
Interested people will get in no matter how many difficulties -- and I dont see these as difficulties at all. And I would rather have 10 interested people than 1000 idiots here.
BTW other mailing lists like BLUG-* also have no HTML policy...
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
If you want only 10 interested people (here are actually talking of Technically Advanced people, not Interested per se), then you should make the ILUG a Techies Only group, dont bother to pretend that you are going to help new users move in and adapt to the OS.
Regards Saswata
AGREED COMPLETELY
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
If you want only 10 interested people (here are actually talking of Technically Advanced people, not Interested per se), then you should make the ILUG a Techies Only group, dont bother to pretend that you are going to help new users move in and adapt to the OS.
Regards Saswata
Harsh wrote:
Next LUG meet: 11 Oct 2003 around 4 pm - VJTI Mech Dept
AGREED COMPLETELY
Ha Ha Ha Ha Thanks for the support, but now you are going to get flamed for top-posting :-)
Regards Saswata
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
If you want only 10 interested people (here are actually talking of Technically Advanced people, not Interested per se), then you should make the ILUG a Techies Only group, dont bother to pretend that you are going to help new users move in and adapt to the OS.
Regards Saswata
Who cares ... this thread started after my HTML mail (i guess it was my mail that sparked this off )and some how do support the text mails idea.
frankly i dont like the way ppl behave on the list. living in their shell / well and think there is no world outside and levels of intertia too. our list has a record of ill-treating new comers just coz they think the questions are silly but they fail to realise that they were novices too.
at personal levels those whom i have spoken to off the record no longer hold any high regards for the list any longer, a fact evident from the very nature of mails going around ( comparing policy issues and tech related queries ). People have all the time to flame each other (including me ) but dont want to chip in sometime to mainitain the LUG site( i m equally responsible for that). these thing surely must be pinching Dr Nagarjun and other patrons in some corner of their heart.
instead of working towards building free s/w economy and making life simple we dont leave a single opportunity to flame each other. LUG meets have started to become mere formalities. instead of learning from each other we discuss there about GPL and NON-GPLed software and economics around free s/w. let someone write a paper and end it there.
as philip had earlier said this list has gone to the dogs.
dare any one reply saying "we are democratic list and everyone is free to express their views". in democracy we express view and finally the leader decides. Dr Nagarjun has put an end to the html topic and still ppl are posting.
now ppl have more reasons to flame me regards Harsh
----- Original Message -----
Harsh wrote:
Next LUG meet: 11 Oct 2003 around 4 pm - VJTI Mech Dept
AGREED COMPLETELY
Ha Ha Ha Ha Thanks for the support, but now you are going to get flamed for top-posting :-)
Regards Saswata
On Sep 29, 2003 at 00:34, Harsh wrote:
Who cares ...
I really dislike the "who cares" attitude.
frankly i dont like the way ppl behave on the list.
Neither do I. Why don't people take a little more effort to behave in a standards-compliant way? Why don't people spell words properly?
dare any one reply saying "we are democratic list and everyone is free to express their views". in democracy we express view and finally the leader decides.
Bzzzt. Minus several million points for bringing "democracy" into it.
Satya's addendum to Godwin's Law: "Invoking 'democracy' or 'free speech' also invokes Godwin's Law."
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Harsh wrote:
Who cares ... this thread started after my HTML mail (i guess it was my mail that sparked this off )and some how do support the text mails
No it wasn't. Since the new mailman that we use supports content filtering, we now have the ability to handle this. The options were: - Just do it - Check with members first
So, here's another vote. Which option should I go with the next time?
Harsh spake thusly:
Who cares ...
I do.
frankly i dont like the way ppl behave on the list. living in their shell / well and think there is no world outside and levels of intertia too. our list has a record of ill-treating new comers just coz they think the questions are silly but they fail to realise that they were novices too.
In fact I have seen people on this list to be very helpful to genuine questions. Ask the newcommers. Obviously people who live eat and drink GNU/Linux will have a religious approach to it.
instead of working towards building free s/w economy and making life simple we dont leave a single opportunity to flame each other. LUG meets have started to become mere formalities. instead of learning from each other we discuss there about GPL and NON-GPLed software and economics around free s/w. let someone write a paper and end it there.
why do you keep wanting to end things, I dont have a clue ...
as philip had earlier said this list has gone to the dogs.
bow owwww..
free to express their views". in democracy we express view and finally the leader decides.
are you for real ? there is this trivial something called a "VOTE" -- which I also read in the subject line of this email. :D
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 09:25:42PM +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote: [snip]
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
Using text-based email doesn't make anyone a geek. At the same time, using GUI based HTML email doesn't make anyone a newbie. I vote for blocking HTML for the simple reason that it's not too hard to deal with and the advantages, that others on the list have so ably described, are not insignificant. At my university, we have virtually everyone using pine in the administrative offices. Using pine is a brain-dead job and I've succesfully got people, using computers for the first time when they're 40, to use pine. If people can cope with pine, navigating through a few options in their favorite email program shouldn't be hard.
If you want only 10 interested people (here are actually talking of Technically Advanced people, not Interested per se), then you should make the ILUG a Techies Only group, dont bother to pretend that you are going to help new users move in and adapt to the OS.
Geez, using text-based email is NOT techinically advanced. If anything, it's technically backward since those were the first kind of emails that were flying around the new.
Vote: Block.
-Bhargav.
P.S: Solve the P=NP question, and you'll rightfully earn the title of a geek/god.
Bhargav Bhatt wrote:
Next LUG meet: 11 Oct 2003 around 4 pm - VJTI Mech Dept
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 09:25:42PM +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote: [snip]
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
Using text-based email doesn't make anyone a geek. At the same time, using GUI based HTML email doesn't make anyone a newbie. I vote for blocking HTML for the simple reason that it's not too hard to deal with and the advantages, that others on the list have so ably described, are not insignificant. At my university, we have virtually everyone using pine in the administrative offices. Using pine is a brain-dead job and I've succesfully got people, using computers for the first time when they're 40, to use pine. If people can cope with pine, navigating through a few options in their favorite email program shouldn't be hard.
Not directly related to this topic, but still relavent :
I use a Palm m130 PDA. It comes with a software called "Palm Email". It is a software on the Palm OS that syncs with the outloook / outlook express and other popular windows email clients and puts the emails on the PDA so that I can read and reply when travelling. The interesting thing here is that being a PDA and therefore living with low resources, it has only text based emails support. However, that does not make my html mails unreadable. What the software does is to read the html tags, converts it into a relavent text format.
Surely there must be such functions already available for text based email clients in linux also.
Regards Saswata
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Saswata Banerjee & Associates spake thusly:
support. However, that does not make my html mails unreadable. What the software does is to read the html tags, converts it into a relavent text format.
Surely there must be such functions already available for text based email clients in linux also.
:) There are.
I use Gnus. It is the most powerful email client in the whole goddamn universe. It can do anything you can conceive of.
But that is not the point. Plain text email because : -------------------------- #1. Email /was/ supposed to be plain text. Every thing else is a mime part. #2. Reading plain text email is very easy on the eyes. Believe me, I deal with a few hundred mails a day. #3. Most gurus have been using email since long -- they prefer email in plain text. They have deviced nice little ways of making plain text email even nicer. I for one trust their wisdom. They have seen it all. :-) #4. New technology does not necessarily mean you discard older stuff which is existing and is excellent for a job. #5. After all what is the purpose of our list ? To show your HTML skills ? To show what bgcolor I prefer ? How does HTML add value is completely beyond me.
I use a Palm m130 PDA. It comes with a software called "Palm Email". It is a software on the Palm OS that syncs with the outloook / outlook express and other popular windows email clients and puts the emails on the PDA so that I can read and reply when travelling. The interesting thing here is that being a PDA and therefore living with low resources, it has only text based emails support. However, that does not make my html mails unreadable. What the software does is to read the html tags, converts it into a relavent text format.
Surely there must be such functions already available for text based email clients in linux also.
Yes, my Pine does this. I don't know about Mutt. Pine fails only when it encounters frames, and it generally creates a hash of tables, but then tables would be messed up with even plain-text formats, usually.
I find HTML messages totally unreadable when I receive digests from mailing lists. But then if the mailing list manager makes MIME coded digests, I have no problems. Unfortunately, a lot Linux mailing lists are running on mailing list managers which don't seem to be able to make MIME coded digests. (Linux Bangalore's lists, on yahoogroups.com, are among them). Those become a royal pain to read.
I am a totally text-mode junkie (my laptop runs Linux, I write all official documents in LaTeX, etc) but even with my text-mode limitations, I seem to find less problems handling HTML than some others on this list. Therefore, I get the impression that part of the problem is because we're using inappropriate software (e.g. non-MIME mailing list managers, non-MIME mail archiving software, older versions of Pine, etc) for the job.
Other issues like bandwidth consumption, etc, are of course legit.
Shuvam
Shuvam Misra wrote:
I find HTML messages totally unreadable when I receive digests from mailing lists. But then if the mailing list manager makes MIME coded digests, I have no problems. Unfortunately, a lot Linux mailing lists are running on mailing list managers which don't seem to be able to make MIME coded digests. (Linux Bangalore's lists, on yahoogroups.com, are among them). Those become a royal pain to read.
IIRC, linuxers digests can be received in MIME encoded format but it is disabled by default. That option has to be enabled explicitly in your subscription prefs.
I find HTML messages totally unreadable when I receive digests from mailing lists. But then if the mailing list manager makes MIME coded digests, I have no problems. Unfortunately, a lot Linux mailing lists are running on mailing list managers which don't seem to be able to make MIME coded digests. (Linux Bangalore's lists, on yahoogroups.com, are among them). Those become a royal pain to read.
IIRC, linuxers digests can be received in MIME encoded format but it is disabled by default. That option has to be enabled explicitly in your subscription prefs.
In fact, I'm getting Linuxers digests correctly MIME-encoded, and that makes things very easy for me. You're right about Linuxers. It's the Bangalore groups which work through yahoogroups.com, and I can't seem to find any way to switch on MIME-encoded digests. Now of course, I can't even get access to groups.yahoo.com, so I can't even experiment. We're beginning to become a country as bad as China when it comes to censorship.
Shuvam
Now of course, I can't
even get access to groups.yahoo.com, so I can't even experiment. We're beginning to become a country as bad as China when it comes to censorship.
Shuvam
The Yahoo groups problem has been resolved. Since the past few days, I have been able change settings for my subscribed groups.
Can We have mailman filter the HTML mail, scrape the text content and deliver it to the ML ??
Regards Rakesh
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Saswata Banerjee & Associates spake thusly:
Interested people will get in no matter how many difficulties -- and I dont see these as difficulties at all. And I would rather have 10 interested people than 1000 idiots here.
With an attitude like that, Linux will remain a geek's OS and stay confined to the sidelines of comuting history. If you want to see Linux grow, it needs more users and support from users. That will not happen till you are willing to tollerate so called "1000 idiots" and help them become something more than just idiots, make them better users.
If you want only 10 interested people (here are actually talking of Technically Advanced people, not Interested per se), then you should make the ILUG a Techies Only group, dont bother to pretend that you are going to help new users move in and adapt to the OS.
That is *your* interpretation. Nowhere have I mentioned "Technically Advanced" etc. Interested is a simple english word. People who are genuinely interested in learning, knowing, exploring. May they be new or old.
I still say that such 10 people will add more wight to this list than 1000 idiots. Please note I was not talking about the whole world, but this list.
And yes this was a Hackers OS. And look where it has reached now. How many of the "1000 idiots" (who we have to tolerate) have added anything to it?
Millions of Normal people who are interested have made what it is.
-
Bhargav Bhatt -
Devdas Bhagat -
Harsh -
Philip S Tellis -
q u a s i -
Rakesh Tiwari -
Ranjeet Walunj -
Saswata Banerjee & Associates -
Satya -
Shuvam Misra -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Tahir Hashmi -
Vinayakam Murugan