Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Need techies to demonstrate Ubuntu Dapper at Bombay Press Club To: linuxers@mm.glug-bom.org Message-ID: 1152119993.44abf4b93a36b@qmail-a.directi.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Quoting Steven Joseph:
Hmm... techies who are into art and type setting........... A rare breed, i must say.
It is also possible... and very desirable... to have a bunch of people into art and typesetting here to sharpen their skills on Gimp, Scribus etc.
Vickram
In fact, and probably I am at fault for not asking this before or even googling for it, are there any app user groups within the Indian Linux community? It seems to me this is probably the best way to get some sharp usage of apps and therefore linux based desktops accelerated. Most of the problems posed here on this list appear to be related to desktop or server issues.
Someone made a rude ;-) comment about GIMP and scribus in re comparisons with better-known proprietary tools. I have used the former, not the latter, and in many ways it is as convenient as Photoshop. I saw a Scribus presentation at a major trade fair and was really impressed (I have used both Adobe and Quark).
Vickram
On 06-Jul-06, at 5:07 PM, vvcrishna@radiophony.com wrote:
Someone made a rude ;-) comment about GIMP and scribus in re comparisons with better-known proprietary tools. I have used the former, not the latter, and in many ways it is as convenient as Photoshop. I saw a Scribus presentation at a major trade fair and was really impressed (I have used both Adobe and Quark).
i made it. and it wasnt rude. it was honest. I had extensively used corel draw, pagemaker until i could no longer afford them. The equivalent inkscape and scribus are nowhere near them in ease of use and features. Gimp is as good or better than photoshop though. Show me four color separations in scribus please. Or from gimp for that matter. Let us not be blind in our worship. There are areas where foss has a long way to go - an equivalent to dreamweaver is another thing missing. (I have run a printing press for several years, so i know what i am talking about)
On Thursday 06 July 2006 05:56 pm, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Show me four color separations in scribus please. Or from gimp for that matter.
Seek and u shall find ;-).
http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml
Let us not be blind in our worship. There are areas where foss has a long way to go - an equivalent to dreamweaver is another thing missing. (I have run a printing press for several years, so i know what i am talking about)
On 06-Jul-06, at 6:28 PM, jtd wrote:
Show me four color separations in scribus please. Or from gimp for that matter.
Seek and u shall find ;-).
Separate A plugin providing rudimentary CMYK support for The GIMP ~~~~~~~~~
On Thursday 06 July 2006 06:31 pm, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 06-Jul-06, at 6:28 PM, jtd wrote:
Show me four color separations in scribus please. Or from gimp for that matter.
Seek and u shall find ;-).
Separate A plugin providing rudimentary CMYK support for The GIMP
The "rudimentary" part was a year ago. susequently there was an article (cant remember where) which had some scripts and plenty of tricks to produce better CYMK o/p than the commercial versions. Suggest u spend some time trying it out. Considering that u are well versed in python, u should be quite comfortable. There was a something about scribus (which is what i was sarching for ) and CYMK.
On Thursday 06 July 2006 17:56, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
i made it. and it wasnt rude. it was honest. I had extensively used corel draw, pagemaker until i could no longer afford them. The equivalent inkscape and scribus are nowhere near them in ease of use and features. Gimp is as good or better than photoshop though. Show me four color separations in scribus please. Or from gimp for that matter. Let us not be blind in our worship. There are areas where foss has a long way to go - an equivalent to dreamweaver is another thing missing. (I have run a printing press for several years, so i know what i am talking about)
I agree with you but partially. Blind hero-worship is not going to get FOSS anywhere. BUT, I think you're mistaken. You run a printing press, thats cool but Dr.Nagarjuna's PhD student (forgot her name) gave an excellent presentation on LaTeX. It'll beat the crap out of any software.
Do correct me if I am wrong. I did keep away from this thread because I am neither an expert in Photoshop/Pagemaker/Corel Draw or their equivalents in Linux.
On 06-Jul-06, at 6:29 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
thing missing. (I have run a printing press for several years, so i know what i am talking about)
I agree with you but partially. Blind hero-worship is not going to get FOSS anywhere. BUT, I think you're mistaken. You run a printing press, thats cool but Dr.Nagarjuna's PhD student (forgot her name) gave an excellent presentation on LaTeX. It'll beat the crap out of any software.
print is about colour. A press prints in 4 colours (sometimes 5 or 6, but that is another matter), so the page has to be separated into the 4 basic colours - cyan, magenta, yellow and black and these four colours are printed one on top of another to get the output. For professional work, rudimentary wont cut it. Similarly layout requires the utmost of precision and effects - what looks ok on screen may look horrible on paper - again rudimentary wont cut it. Incidently, one foss tool, blender, beats all its proprietory rivals. And, incidently, latex rocks, but there are very few phd students in the print world ;-)
On Thursday 06 July 2006 18:47, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
one foss tool, blender, beats all its proprietory rivals. And, incidently, latex rocks, but there are very few phd students in the print world ;-)
right. So that brings us back to the point - UI. We need a great UI in the FOSS world :)
On 06/07/06 18:58 +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thursday 06 July 2006 18:47, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
one foss tool, blender, beats all its proprietory rivals. And, incidently, latex rocks, but there are very few phd students in the print world ;-)
right. So that brings us back to the point - UI. We need a great UI in the FOSS world :)
Not UI, featureset. The FOSS world _is_ hampered in printing by CMYK patents held by Adobe. Blender has one of the worst UIs for a new user, but for someone who learns that UI, it is far more powerful than anything else. Like mutt, vi or emacs!.
Devdas Bhagat
On Thursday 06 July 2006 19:16, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Not UI, featureset. The FOSS world _is_ hampered in printing by CMYK patents held by Adobe. Blender has one of the worst UIs for a new user, but for someone who learns that UI, it is far more powerful than anything else. Like mutt, vi or emacs!.
Ermm...do you like to contradict yourself? Your first part is simply contradicting with the second part. Incase you didn't get it, you first say that UI is not a part of the problem and then you go ahead and say Blender has one of the worst UIs. So UI *is* a part of the problem :)
On 06/07/06 19:42 +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thursday 06 July 2006 19:16, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Not UI, featureset. The FOSS world _is_ hampered in printing by CMYK patents held by Adobe. Blender has one of the worst UIs for a new user, but for someone who learns that UI, it is far more powerful than anything else. Like mutt, vi or emacs!.
Ermm...do you like to contradict yourself? Your first part is simply contradicting with the second part. Incase you didn't get it, you first say that UI is not a part of the problem and then you go ahead and say Blender has one of the worst UIs. So UI *is* a part of the problem :)
And if you read the thread again, you will notice that Kenneth claims that Blender is far better than anything in the closed source world. Even with a bad, unintutive UI. Please read the complete sentence first.
By your standard, Exchange is a good MTA, but Postfix and Exim are not.
vi and emacs have their own strengths (and weaknesses). Which is why we have vigor and vim.
There is that old quote from Usenet: The only intutive UI is the nipple. Everything else is learnt.
The more powerful the application, the more complex the interface. Photoshop has a complex interface. For that matter, so does MS Word. That 99% of people never go beyond a few buttons (which they have been taught to use) and never actually use the power of the office suite is not the fault of the "excellent" UI.
You have the bias of coming from a MS Windows environment and want something similar. I have the bias of coming from a Unixy environment, and I want something similar. And no, terminal.app is simply not a replacement for a bunch of xterms.
Devdas Bhagat
On 06-Jul-06, at 11:17 PM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
that Blender is far better than anything in the closed source world. Even with a bad, unintutive UI.
bad? unintuitive? mild words, its a nightmare - to learn you need two machines, one to practice on and the other to go through the docs
On Thursday 06 July 2006 23:17, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
And if you read the thread again, you will notice that Kenneth claims that Blender is far better than anything in the closed source world. Even with a bad, unintutive UI. Please read the complete sentence first.
Bad, Unintuitive UIs drive away people and everyone keeps wondering why there aren't Linux desktops around. Given a choice between Debian and Ubuntu what do people prefer? I thought the whole point of the demonstration was to _entice_ people into using OSS based alternatives and not /drive them away/ with horrible horrible UIs.
By your standard, Exchange is a good MTA, but Postfix and Exim are not.
vi and emacs have their own strengths (and weaknesses). Which is why we have vigor and vim.
You are twisting my words. I agreed that blender was powerful BUT it would be yet more powerful IF it had a good UI. And people would actually be MORE OPEN to using it in the first place...
There is that old quote from Usenet: The only intutive UI is the nipple. Everything else is learnt.
Well UIs that we see here arent a nipple. Thats for sure!
The more powerful the application, the more complex the interface. Photoshop has a complex interface. For that matter, so does MS Word. That 99% of people never go beyond a few buttons (which they have been taught to use) and never actually use the power of the office suite is not the fault of the "excellent" UI.
Complex doesn't mean crappy / unusable!
You have the bias of coming from a MS Windows environment and want something similar. I have the bias of coming from a Unixy environment, and I want something similar. And no, terminal.app is simply not a replacement for a bunch of xterms.
Excuse me, I might not be born in the UNIX environment but I have been using it for a pretty long time. And as a proud owner of 3 machines exclusively running Linux I can say with enough confidence that I dont have bias against "UNIXy" environments. Its your kind of arrogance, ignorance and refusal to accept the shortcomings of the OSS UIs that are hindering real progress.
I'm _not_ even remotely implying that *nix UIs should resemble M$ Windoze if that is what ticked you off...
ciao!
On Thursday 06 July 2006 06:47 pm, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 06-Jul-06, at 6:29 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
thing missing. (I have run a printing press for several years, so i know what i am talking about)
I agree with you but partially. Blind hero-worship is not going to get FOSS anywhere. BUT, I think you're mistaken. You run a printing press, thats cool but Dr.Nagarjuna's PhD student (forgot her name) gave an excellent presentation on LaTeX. It'll beat the crap out of any software.
print is about colour. what looks ok on screen may look horrible on paper - again rudimentary wont cut it. Incidently, one foss tool, blender, beats all its proprietory rivals. And, incidently, latex rocks, but there are very few phd students in the print world ;-)
There is a tool for calibrating the entire toolcahin - scanner, printer and monitor - -- http://www.argyllcms.com/index.html
Rgds JTD
On 08-Jul-06, at 10:49 AM, jtd wrote:
There is a tool for calibrating the entire toolcahin - scanner, printer and monitor - -- http://www.argyllcms.com/index.html
are you recomending all these things after trying them out, or is it just results of google searches - no disrespect intended as the last time i did a real search and tried out anything was over 6 months ago
On Saturday 08 July 2006 10:43 am, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 08-Jul-06, at 10:49 AM, jtd wrote:
There is a tool for calibrating the entire toolcahin - scanner, printer and monitor - -- http://www.argyllcms.com/index.html
are you recomending all these things after trying them out, or is it just results of google searches - no disrespect intended as the last time i did a real search and tried out anything was over 6 months ago
I calibirated my monitor using the tools. The results were noticably better even though the printer was not calibirated. Also electronic docs are visually more pleasing on un caled monitors (customer's monitor). Never used CMYK stuff but remembered the article about this. Proof reading the final prints of a company AR is such a horrible pain that i thought it would be preferable to spend time using scribus to automate the process. Which led to reading up on the print stuff.
On 08-Jul-06, at 11:15 AM, jtd wrote:
I calibirated my monitor using the tools. The results were noticably better even though the printer was not calibirated. Also electronic docs are visually more pleasing on un caled monitors (customer's monitor). Never used CMYK stuff but remembered the article about this. Proof reading the final prints of a company AR is such a horrible pain that i thought it would be preferable to spend time using scribus to automate the process. Which led to reading up on the print stuff.
fair enough - i'll look at it again
-
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
vvcrishna＠radiophony.com