On Friday 24 June 2005 08:22, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Most of the guys who propagate this 'learn on your own' crap are guys who have 3-5 years of formal education in computers, on which basis they are now capable, to a certain extent, of learning on their own. incidently, on a personal note heard tell you were going for german classes - how come you didnt learn german on your own (I did).
And 3~5 yrs it does take to learn - in or outside a formal institution. The difference is that inside you will view the world thru the prof's blinkers - and most of those are very colored. IMO learning outside is far better, inspite of the hurdles and occassional hot reception to (ahem) dumb questions.
I would suggest that unhelpful replies like this be avoided. If a guy asks for info about courses available, either give the info or refrain from adding to the noise on the list.
The op's (non) question itself shows that the person has probably never even installed linux on his machine leave alone written a line of code for anything at all. It his duty to first aquaint himself with the basics before diving into the deep end. And besides the hot answers there were cool ones too. Kind of nice balance.
rgds jtd
On Friday 24 Jun 2005 10:22 am, sherlock@vsnl.com wrote:
And 3~5 yrs it does take to learn - in or outside a formal institution. The difference is that inside you will view the world thru the prof's blinkers - and most of those are very colored. IMO learning outside is far better, inspite of the hurdles and occassional hot reception to (ahem) dumb questions.
the point i am making is the concept of 'the best learn by themselves' which is simply not true. Self help, as i have already mentioned, is a crucial component of learning - but only one component. Tiger woods is the best golfer in the world - but has a coach, so for Anand. Maria Sharopova's father flew to florida with $700 in his pocket - why didnt he stick in siberia and encourage his daughter to learn by herself? Sania Mizra's biggest weakness is fitness and is running from pillar to post trying to find a fitness coach - surely she could learn to keep fit on her own by reading books, watching TV and googling? In fact the only guys who subscribe to this self-taught crap is the indian hockey federation - and they are wallowing in deep kaka.
formal training imparts certain fundamental skills and discipline which can only be appreciated by ppl unfortunate enough not to have the benefits of the same. It also, to a great extent, prevents one from reinventing the wheel - i just spent 20 hours on debugging an app due to an error so simple that it has never been mentioned in any HOWTO or tutorial as it was considered too elementary to be worth mention.
There is only one area where self taught is best - where you are breaking new ground and venturing where no man has been before. And this does not apply to the instant case.
--- Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:
the point i am making is the concept of 'the best learn by themselves' which is simply not true. Self help, as i have already mentioned, is a crucial component of learning - but only one component. Tiger woods is the best golfer in the world - but has a coach, so for Anand. Maria Sharopova's father flew to florida with $700 in his pocket - why didnt he stick in siberia and encourage his daughter to learn by herself? Sania Mizra's biggest weakness is fitness and is running from pillar to post trying to find a fitness coach - surely she could learn to keep fit on her own by reading books, watching TV and googling? In fact the only guys who subscribe to this self-taught crap is the indian hockey federation - and they are wallowing in deep kaka.
Aren't coaches qualified and experienced people who can spot what you're doing wrong ?
I'm no big trainer - I just teach as a visiting lecturer at local colleges in Nashik, and mentor B.E. Projects on a personal level. But I've observed that the weak enslave themselves. And even the best sometimes need to bounce ideas off others.
Returning to the point about how important or effective self help is, I'd say that knowing how to teach yourself plays a very important role.
formal training imparts certain fundamental skills and discipline which can only be appreciated by ppl unfortunate enough not to have the benefits of the same.
I'd rephrase that as "format training is _supposed_ to impart". Students at schools and colleges today know how to appear for exams. A limited few among them also happen to read more, or interact with industry professionals.
I don't know if you've mentored projects or visited academic institutions as a lecturer, or perhaps played the role of an examiner in the Engineering exams. You'll discover horror stories of "minimum 70% marks for projects", and people charging anywhere between 8K to 20K per person per project,
It also, to a great extent, prevents one from reinventing the wheel - i just spent 20 hours on debugging an app due to an error so simple that it has never been mentioned in any HOWTO or tutorial as it was considered too elementary to be worth mention.
Not necessarily. For a variety of reasons, most lecturers today are not in touch with realities of the present day. These are the very people who influence entire generations of people.
And while lecturers are supposed to teach programming and debugging techniques, their focus is more often than not on topics such as salaries, holidays, university submissions, and the like.
Go visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcslug/ and see the outrage that several young folks there have against their lecturers and the education system.
There is only one area where self taught is best - where you are breaking new ground and venturing where no man has been before. And this does not apply to the instant case.
I've recently co-authored a paper called "Assessing self-study ability at technical interviews". This is due to be published in a leading Linux magazine soon. This was inspired by my experiences with supposedly experienced on the job who shamelessly state "Databases was in my third year, I'll need to revise that".
You are a developer yourself. How would you like it if everyone around wanted to be a "do-as-directed" programmer ?
-- regards kg
-- Sriram
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Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
formal training imparts certain fundamental skills and discipline which can only be appreciated by ppl unfortunate enough not to have the benefits of the same. It also, to a great extent, prevents one from reinventing the wheel - i just spent 20 hours on debugging an app due to an error so simple that it has never been mentioned in any HOWTO or tutorial as it was considered too elementary to be worth mention.
I agree with this thought. Formal education does have its foundation benefits. There are people who learn on their own but they are either excellently self sufficient or they are working in the same (read linux) environment that makes learning easier. For example an employee who works in a company that has linux installed in their systems.
It took me about 3-5 years to learn windows on my own and since I was self employed in another electronics field, I could not get work initially in computers till I learnt something and was experienced enough. To gain this experience, I needed work. It was like a round circle. I did a short course though in computer hardware from an MCED affiliated institute. That saved me from messing up other peoples' hardware and get basic knowledge to _understand_ more.
The same is true for linux. Since I am not in the linux field, the only way to learn is on my own comp. An RHCE course did help me in getting foundation training in linux but the actual learning starts now after finishing the course and there is a lot more to learn.
Conclusion for Manoj Bohara:- Do a formal course but use it as the foundation, and keep learning more and more on your own.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Friday 24 Jun 2005 9:04 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
Conclusion for Manoj Bohara:- Do a formal course but use it as the foundation, and keep learning more and more on your own.
experience from another domain - a person does a 3/5 year course in law and gets a degree and a license to practice. *But* unless he spends at least 2 or 3 years as a junior or apprentice and really applies himself to learning on his own, he is unfit to conduct even the simplest of cases.
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Kenneth Gonsalves -
Rony Bill -
sherlock＠vsnl.com -
Sriram N