Quasi wrote
At 02:52 morn 9/5/02 -0600, JTD wrote: the less informed said
as I was about the only one talking about X, and as I am one of the less informed anyway, let me take this up... '-)
No offence meant mate. (my apologies if it did offend)
- X gui is bloated
More precisely, that X GUI suxx ;) - i.e. for the uninitiated, it is not (very) sophisticated.
U mean it's too sophisticated for the uninitiated.
For those who dont read complete threads,
I read the complete thread ;-)).
Note I was talking about the GUI only. Not the underlying architecture. And further, considering only the *GUI* aspect -
that is precisely my gripe.
I have used X servers available from 96 onwards (svga, accelerated Mach64, XFree86), QNX, BeOS & M$ Windows 3.11/95/98/98SE/NT/2000/XP. The fastest I have used was X+fvwm2 (used to run on a 386 without a FPU and with only 8Mb of memory), and it was way, *WAY* better than win 3.11/95. The flashiest/eyecandy were X+gnome+enlightenment and XP. The smoothest/fast/crisp/stable I have used is the win98 SE GUI.
all themore reason for not cribbing.
- users want something that works
Seems that the issues were mixed and arguments against linux were not in context. (it would have been better if you had quoted the contexts.)
Heck quote all those mails... but read on
2)total number of non i386 processors sold is higher by several orders of magnitude.
eh? if you are meaning Intel 80386 processors, you are probably right.
yes that is exactly what i meant.
But if you meant processors of the x86 family, I must say you are completely off the mark here. The *powerful & complex* machines you talk about have pitiful tiny numbers compared to the cheap & generic x86 processors. Also as of today, IMHO, if you consider pure computing power, the best of the x86 family must be the most powerful.
confusing ... comparing x86 to x86
They run customised software which makes it possible for crap like windows to exist in the first place. (Power, railways, mining, communications, manufacturing, medical tecnology). 3) If u think that windows works ur idea of "works" needs corrective education (a stint at gulag microsoft might be in order). If u are an engineer please dont mention the two in the same breath.
Windows does work. If your idea of "works" is a huge complex system running huge complex custom software, you should buy a PC, maybe. Unix (traditional or Linux) has almost no competition in the *huge complex* world. But isnt that completely besides the point?
the systems are indeed hughe and complex but individual processors are far less complex than a i386 infact they are 8 and 16 bit devices. and most run tcp and x25 stacks for communication. The point being that other than a office desktop (where it is used because of accident rather than any great design) windows is good for nothing.
But the above completely misses out on something very basic "what is good for u and ur business" U may be a business end user or a professional in the computer industry, the basics are the same.
[this is getting off topic, nothing to do with X - but maybe "Interesting topic" includes all :) ]
No no it's abt making a living v/s you toiling to make billy babas living.
Consider this, (if you can) : My father (a real person)
Would never doubt that ;-).
is an cartography expert. He used to makes maps by hand in his younger days.
excuse my ignorance but are you refering to GIS systems (is cartography a subset or superset of GIS)
Today he makes them with the aid of a computer. They have spent ~7 lakhs on a software
One of my aquantainces dowloaded an open source GIS system and is developing numerous customised applications for clients. his raw material costs 8 hrs download ( Rs.8 for cable internet) Sprints on linux R.H 7.2.
called MapInfo. Runs on windows {grin}. He has minimal computer background. I had been trying to con him into installing GNU/Linux with X. But he asked me : -
- Will my software run on Linux or is there a equivalent s/w on Linux?
See what happens if u use windows
- Will my HPDeskjet blah blah printer run on Linux (print manager, et.al)?
- Will I be able to use Linux with my current knowledge, as I have minimal
time? 4. Will *I* be able to manage Linux as I am the most computer savvy person
clip
case of cart before the horse.
- We have about only 10 PC's, so we cannot afford an engeneer/sysadmin.
Sys admin? what for.
- When we have spent 7 lakhs on MapInfo we did not mind spending 5-10Kz on
Windowz.
is that all. No mail server, no firewall, no word processing, no spread sheet?
-- and most importantly -- 7. It works fine on windows, what advantage will I get on Linux ?
Using windows is the bait. The trap lies ahead (but that is a much hacked story)
I think we were trying to discuss ways to promote Linux?
Dispelling scepticism in potential software and technical personnel is what i thought. But then things got very interesting ;-).
But promote where ? Most of the developer open community already uses Linux. Most of the snip
Most of the non-software-developer community wants (intelligent) black boxes which help them be more efficient in what they do best. And if you[1] want GNU/Linux there, then imposing ones' idea of cool isnt about "choice" - the touted mantra.
[1] "you", because I have no such particularly burning desire. I love it and I would not mind if it remained the exclusive domain of geeks/nerds/developers/students/free-souls. The whispered truth of the matter is that if *all* the users are your own community then where will your chapati+bhaji come from?
I am indeed making chappati + bhaji with beer thrown in from developing customised applications which are unthinkable in any context other than free software.
So IMHO stop thinking about windows. It is irrelevant in 99% of microprocessors.
So IMHO, try to get out of the well. There are many wells all around. We should keep our mind open enough to swim in any of them whenever we choose & need. Closing an option or not seeing the enemy's sword is not very wise ...
Yeah and swim in the oceans of the brave new GNU world. As for converting desktop pc it will happen on it's own with a little change in X some in Y and some more in Z. The only limitation of Linux is brand equity. The day somone decides to spend mega bucks on promoting linux the door would shut on widows.
rgds jtdsouza@softhome.net
At 11:34 morn 9/5/02 -0600, JTD wrote:
No offence meant mate. (my apologies if it did offend)
please do not apologise. This is just an argument, I do not take it personally and hope other dont too.
More precisely, that X GUI suxx ;) - i.e. for the uninitiated, it is not (very) sophisticated.
U mean it's too sophisticated for the uninitiated.
yes, everyone who disagrees with you is uninitiated. Most Linux users I have known are of the opinion that X does indeed suc. It could be much better. Maybe I am in the wrong company.
Note I was talking about the GUI only. Not the underlying architecture. And further, considering only the *GUI* aspect -
that is precisely my gripe.
I do not understand why you find the need to gripe. In the beginning of the thread itself I have said that *I* & most of us here use GNU/Linux because we like it & are in some way computer savvy/crazy. But for those who just want to use a computer as a tool (eg. my brother who is doing management) they *absolutely* do not care about the underlying architecture. Trying to *get* him to use Linux I started wondering about our efforts to promote it. Most of us look down on someone who is not interested to even try to understand trivial aspects of the computing environment. But the reality is there are a *lot* of such people. And I started questioning our need to ask them to use Linux. Why? Those who matter to the Linux world already use Linux. Why this "we shall save you from slavery" attitude?
eh? if you are meaning Intel 80386 processors, you are probably right.
yes that is exactly what i meant.
Intel 80386 processors have nothing to do with this argument. The are a negligibly small part of the family.
the cheap & generic x86 processors. Also as of today, IMHO, if you consider pure computing power, the best of the x86 family must be the most powerful.
confusing ... comparing x86 to x86
Maybe I was slightly terse there. I was talking about *all* the processors families in the world as of today. Some x86 processor is the *most* powerful processor _generally_available_. More than 90% of the computer sold in the last decade were PC's. And >90% of those run on x86 family of processors.
the systems are indeed hughe and complex but individual processors are far less complex than a i386 infact they are 8 and 16 bit devices.
which has anything to do with X being grubby ?
desktop (where it is used because of accident rather than any great design) windows is good for nothing.
refer above. As for windows being good for nothing, I disagree. And I will not discuss this point again, as it is beyond reason to reason with such zealotish attitudes. If you have valid points, put them up. These dramatic dialogues sound good but dont help GNU/Linux in anyway.
No no it's abt making a living v/s you toiling to make billy babas living.
Bill Gates has earned his money because he was smart. He lived in this world and used this world's own rules to make his pile. (note that I did not call him honest or dishonest.) Dont be jealous of his success or hate him for it.
is an cartography expert. He used to makes maps by hand in his younger days.
excuse my ignorance but are you refering to GIS systems (is cartography a subset or superset of GIS)
GIS system could be much more than mere cartographic systems. But in the end they need maps of some kind or other to visually represent the data, so I guess they are intertwined.
Today he makes them with the aid of a computer. They have spent ~7 lakhs on a software
One of my aquantainces dowloaded an open source GIS system and is developing numerous customised applications for clients.
no doubt about that. My father is unfortunately in the academic field. All the *free* or *free to try* products which they have ordered/downloaded have not proved to be of any great use. MapInfo and Vertical mapper have features which are *way* too sophisticated compared to the *free* ones. Unlike wordprocessors, these products cater to very specialized problem domains and have a very niche market and hence the *free* versions are not that easy to develop/maintain/use.
- Will my software run on Linux or is there a equivalent s/w on Linux?
See what happens if u use windows
they are using the above mentioned products on windows for the past 2 years with great ease and no problems (related to that software).
- Will *I* be able to manage Linux as I am the most computer savvy person
clip case of cart before the horse.
absolutely not. Rather the case of - if I cannot drive a car and/or cannot afford to hire a driver then is it wise to buy one?
- We have about only 10 PC's, so we cannot afford an engeneer/sysadmin.
Sys admin? what for.
"who is going to install/configure the whole thing? we are not computer people and though we would love to learn we hardly have the time"
- When we have spent 7 lakhs on MapInfo we did not mind spending 5-10Kz
on Windowz.
is that all. No mail server, no firewall, no word processing, no spread sheet?
"we use our university server for mail & some free mail client, free firewall & free *office for windows"
-- and most importantly -- 7. It works fine on windows, what advantage will I get on Linux ?
Using windows is the bait. The trap lies ahead (but that is a much hacked story)
all this conspiracy theory is amusing to say the least.
I think we were trying to discuss ways to promote Linux?
Dispelling scepticism in potential software and technical personnel is what i thought.
Then I must beg you pardon. I was under the impression we were talking about ways of promoting Linux among the world in general.
As for converting desktop pc it will happen on it's own with a little change in X some in Y and some more in Z.
which was all I was talking about in the first place.
The only limitation of Linux is brand equity.
It is the best "brand" for me and a lot of people. and I dont really care about others. If I had to choose only one OS for my PC, I would go in for Debian GNU/Linux. period. (this does not change my opinion that X is grubby)
The day somone decides to spend mega bucks on promoting linux the door would shut on widows.
That would be the day it would be no longer "cool".. and maybe that would be the day I shift from GNU/Linux. It would be sad indeed.
quasi
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