Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
Karunakar
Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
i find this article to absolutely disgusting as ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION has been made of the GNU, or the Gnome Project both of which are responsible for the Orca project being there in the first place.
The is only thing mentioned is about ``free (open source) software" without explaining what free software is all about and TOTALLY NEGLECTING the 4 Freedoms critical for the survival of a Free Software.
Moreover the focus has been primarily on Cost and nothing else. Moreover the the comparison has been made with proprietary software keeping ONLY the cost factor in mind. Well to that i say is there anything more costly than Freedom? People have paid for it with their blood and their lives. Why not mention Freedom then?
For the record i have nothing against people promoting software for the visually challanged but i do have a problem if you are talking about Free Software - in particular GNU projects and not bothering to give a shread space to the ideals they stand for.
Regards,
- vihan
On 23-Oct-07, at 9:01 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
keeping ONLY the cost factor in mind. Well to that i say is there anything more costly than Freedom? People have paid for it with their blood and their lives.
who paid with blood and lives for free software?
On 10/23/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On 23-Oct-07, at 9:01 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
keeping ONLY the cost factor in mind. Well to that i say is there anything more costly than Freedom? People have paid for it with their blood and their lives.
who paid with blood and lives for free software?
Hmm.. Interesting question. Even RMS is still alive :-p
regards VK
who paid with blood and lives for free software?
Oh! and lest i forget :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
Hmm.. Interesting question. Even RMS is still alive :-p
Does one necessarily HAVE to die to give one's life to Free Software?
IMHO - continuing to live dedicated to a righteous cause and persistently pursuing it no matter what the obstacles are, tirelessly without a vested interested counts as giving one's life and blood.
Regards,
- vihan
On 24-Oct-07, at 1:37 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
IMHO - continuing to live dedicated to a righteous cause and persistently pursuing it no matter what the obstacles are, tirelessly without a vested interested counts as giving one's life and blood.
it doesnt - perhaps you are too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom. If you had, you wouldnt spout tripe like this.
IMHO - continuing to live dedicated to a righteous cause and persistently pursuing it no matter what the obstacles are, tirelessly without a vested interested counts as giving one's life and blood.
it doesnt - perhaps you are too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom. If you had, you wouldnt spout tripe like this.
'Tis true that i am ``too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom".
But perhaps you have forgotten that some people actually bother to read History books and get angry to see mankind repeating its mistakes and misdeeds time after time. Tyranny is tyranny let it be the KGB putting restrictions on who could use the photocopier and for what or governments supporting DRM to suppress what information can be shared and what can't.
If we simply choose to ignore what's happening in world like DRM, Software Patents, and Trusted(sic) Computing then things will just get worse. If we don't care and don't bother to do a thing about it - its a carte blanch invitation for corporates and governments to go ahead and do what they want regardless of its merit.
K.G, i'm not belittling the sacrifices of our nations freedom fighters. i'm just saying its wrong for us to ignore those who are fighting for freedom and liberty in software and if we have an oppertunity to say something about it - we should.
Regards,
- vihan
On 10/24/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
IMHO - continuing to live dedicated to a righteous cause and persistently pursuing it no matter what the obstacles are, tirelessly without a vested interested counts as giving one's life and blood.
it doesnt - perhaps you are too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom. If you had, you wouldnt spout tripe like this.
'Tis true that i am ``too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom".
But perhaps you have forgotten that some people actually bother to read History books and get angry to see mankind repeating its mistakes and misdeeds time after time. Tyranny is tyranny let it be the KGB putting restrictions on who could use the photocopier and for what or governments supporting DRM to suppress what information can be shared and what can't.
If we simply choose to ignore what's happening in world like DRM, Software Patents, and Trusted(sic) Computing then things will just get worse. If we don't care and don't bother to do a thing about it - its a carte blanch invitation for corporates and governments to go ahead and do what they want regardless of its merit.
K.G, i'm not belittling the sacrifices of our nations freedom fighters. i'm just saying its wrong for us to ignore those who are fighting for freedom and liberty in software and if we have an oppertunity to say something about it - we should.
Regards,
I had a message from Alpesh (who also went to Chennai with Krishakant) all this is due to the messup with the media. we have both audio and video records of what Krishnakant spoke where the freedom aspect was not only mentioned but underlined. However, the media chose to neglect those issues.
Btw, the news also says a person from the city (meaning Chennai), but nowhere did they mention that he went there representing gnowledge.org lab of Homi Bhabha Centre, TIFR.
We need to do something to educate the media too. they have no awareness as why we are doing what we are doing.
I have been doing the following with the media person: as soon as I start speaking, I tell them, please record. if they do not have a recorder or if they are doing the interview over phone, I request them to send me the story before it goes to the press. else I tell them clearly, you have not permision to mention my name in the paper. Another strategy I use is to ask them to send the questions over email and send them my replies in black and white.
This strategy works quite well, though I must admit the media people do not oblige all the time.
As soon as we get the video's and audio files in my hand we will upload them.
Nagarjuna
On 24-Oct-07, at 4:31 PM, Nagarjuna G. wrote:
This strategy works quite well, though I must admit the media people do not oblige all the time.
the only strategy that works with them is to ply them with drink and write the article for them
hello, following are my coments and reaction to this thread and I want this to be the last one. firstly I can Understand that vihan reacted without complete knowledge of what was actually said in the conference. so although his feelings are justified but those were not just a bit rood but also targetted towards the wrong people. he is too young and I can understand his over excitement in which he may have targetted his feelings to the wrong person at the wrong place. my only advice to him is that when it comes to comenting about such things, first confirm from a person who is more experienced about what was the reality. as an cineor person with 10+ years of experience, my only advice is "think before you go on records ". that will leave less chances to oppologise later. nagarjun, thanks for responding late but only after confirming things. I have been a reporter myself for about 5 years and now into this IT field for 10 years, I very well understand the dynamics of how things get presented by the media. as nagarjun rightly said, we need to seriously speak to the media. secondly, I don't think we must insult the gnu/linux project by only giving importance to the "free of charge " aspect. although when a screen reader would cost rs. 70000 for a single license, cost factor is equally important for an average blind person, given today's economic condition of those people. employment is difficult to come because if the employer has to pay 70000 rs just to employ a blind employee, he will think 10 times before doing that. and what if the blind person then leaves the job? the investment is waisted. but there are other more important issues as well. think about this case, one of my studant named Balaram from Kerala had a job offer from Taj group. they had a software which he was expected to use. but the proprietory software in question was not at all compatible with what he was supposed to use. now, had the source code of this software been open, it would have the possibility of modification and thus being adopted to that particular software. but nither the company took responsibility nor released any part of the software for modification. so the issue is not about cost (the taj group was ready to pay in the above case ), the issue is about the freedom to modify that software and after that use those modifications for who ever got that opportunity to be employed. so one should understand that freedom is not just the matter of philosophy but it applies to practical life. regarsd, Krishnakant.
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
following are my coments and reaction to this thread and I want this to be the last one.
that is NOT your decision.
firstly I can Understand that vihan reacted without complete knowledge of what was actually said in the conference. so although his feelings are justified but those were not just a bit rood but also targetted towards the wrong people.
if you bothered to make sure that the interviewer got his facts right and made that a pre-condition before giving the interview or even asked for a review of the article before it went online and had it corrected it accordingly it would not have gotten my strong response. In fact i would have giving my congratulations.
he is too young and I can understand his over excitement in which he may have targetted his feelings to the wrong person at the wrong place.
With this statement you clearly prove that understanding is not a function of age. You have NO RIGHT to make that statement since you did not have the foresight to know the ramifications of what you said in pubic and had absolutely no understanding of how to speak to the press.
Don't go about touting wisdom as a response to messing up.
In fact you ought to apologise for not making sure how the article turned out.
my only advice to him is that when it comes to comenting about such things, first confirm from a person who is more experienced about what was the reality.
You still don't get it do you, that article has probably been viewed by hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people all over the world. How many do you think are going about confirming what is true and what isn't? The damage has been done because you were not careful.
i mearly pointed it out if it wasn't me it would have been someone else.
as an cineor person with 10+ years of experience, my only advice is "think before you go on records ".
i think that is a highly ridiculous statement to make as ``senior" people with ``experience" would know how to handle a situation like this.
Did you THINK before going on the record? Believe me i certainly did and i would gladly do it all over again all the same.
that will leave less chances to oppologise later.
i haven't and have no reason to apologise to anyone.
You screwed up you MUST apologise to the GNU and GNOME projects.
nagarjun, thanks for responding late but only after confirming things. I have been a reporter myself for about 5 years
Either that is a lie or you are seriously stupid.
If you have been a reporter for 5 years this should NEVER have have happened.
and now into this IT field for 10 years, I very well understand the dynamics of how things get presented by the media.
Either that is a lie or you are VERY seriously stupid.
as nagarjun rightly said, we need to seriously speak to the media. secondly, I don't think we must insult the gnu/linux project by only giving importance to the "free of charge " aspect.
if you really believe that then you ought to make sure such incidents don't happen.
although when a screen reader would cost rs. 70000 for a single license, cost factor is equally important for an average blind person, given today's economic condition of those people. employment is difficult to come because if the employer has to pay 70000 rs just to employ a blind employee, he will think 10 times before doing that. and what if the blind person then leaves the job? the investment is waisted. but there are other more important issues as well. think about this case, one of my studant named Balaram from Kerala had a job offer from Taj group. they had a software which he was expected to use. but the proprietory software in question was not at all compatible with what he was supposed to use. now, had the source code of this software been open, it would have the possibility of modification and thus being adopted to that particular software. but nither the company took responsibility nor released any part of the software for modification. so the issue is not about cost (the taj group was ready to pay in the above case ), the issue is about the freedom to modify that software and after that use those modifications for who ever got that opportunity to be employed. so one should understand that freedom is not just the matter of philosophy but it applies to practical life.
No one has disputed the practical benefits of free software on this thread. Or are you justifying your mistake by saying the article was absolutely fine? If the case is latter please don't go about giving people the illusion that you are pro freedom in software.
Regards,
- vihan
On 25/10/2007, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
following are my coments and reaction to this thread and I want this to be the last one.
that is NOT your decision.
firstly I can Understand that vihan reacted without complete knowledge of what was actually said in the conference. so although his feelings are justified but those were not just a bit rood but also targetted towards the wrong people.
if you bothered to make sure that the interviewer got his facts right and made that a pre-condition before giving the interview or even asked for a review of the article before it went online and had it corrected it accordingly it would not have gotten my strong response. In fact i would have giving my congratulations.
I have handeled the press more than your experience and even after getting the things right, these people have a habbit of not printing the right thing, I don't go to the printing press to see if what ever has been varified varified varyfied is being printed.
he is too young and I can understand his over excitement in which he may have targetted his feelings to the wrong person at the wrong place.
With this statement you clearly prove that understanding is not a function of age. You have NO RIGHT to make that statement since you did not have the foresight to know the ramifications of what you said in pubic and had absolutely no understanding of how to speak to the press.
I need not learn how to talk to press from you. for your kind information there are audio records of my prdess press conference and you can send them to forensic lab to varify my voice. and by the way I had been a reporter myself and even I had done reporting when you were a kid. and I was thinking thta before this email that you were reacting out of lak of knowledge but even after the clearification from people like nagarjun, if you still point fingers at the wrong person then let me tel you that ur your arrogance will take you no where. you say that I said the wrong things even without hearing my breafing. that itself reflects your level of maturity and understanding. and one more thing I don't do work for your congradulations or appreciation and I very well know what I do. at least when I was of your age I was never as rood to tell the person that I am the only knowledgeble person and "who the hel are you?" at least after knowing whos mistake it was, I would never send such emails saying "you absolutely don't know how to speak etc." that to without knowing the experience of the person in question. I need not mention as nagarjun already did, that I not just breafed about the freedom aspect but also underlined it. and I think you better learn to react properly, your thoughts were exactly as mine were but your words are absolutely smakked with arogance. regards, Krishnakant.
Don't go about touting wisdom as a response to messing up.
In fact you ought to apologise for not making sure how the article turned out.
my only advice to him is that when it comes to comenting about such things, first confirm from a person who is more experienced about what was the reality.
You still don't get it do you, that article has probably been viewed by hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people all over the world. How many do you think are going about confirming what is true and what isn't? The damage has been done because you were not careful.
i mearly pointed it out if it wasn't me it would have been someone else.
as an cineor person with 10+ years of experience, my only advice is "think before you go on records ".
i think that is a highly ridiculous statement to make as ``senior" people with ``experience" would know how to handle a situation like this.
Did you THINK before going on the record? Believe me i certainly did and i would gladly do it all over again all the same.
that will leave less chances to oppologise later.
i haven't and have no reason to apologise to anyone.
You screwed up you MUST apologise to the GNU and GNOME projects.
nagarjun, thanks for responding late but only after confirming things. I have been a reporter myself for about 5 years
Either that is a lie or you are seriously stupid.
If you have been a reporter for 5 years this should NEVER have have happened.
and now into this IT field for 10 years, I very well understand the dynamics of how things get presented by the media.
Either that is a lie or you are VERY seriously stupid.
as nagarjun rightly said, we need to seriously speak to the media. secondly, I don't think we must insult the gnu/linux project by only giving importance to the "free of charge " aspect.
if you really believe that then you ought to make sure such incidents don't happen.
although when a screen reader would cost rs. 70000 for a single license, cost factor is equally important for an average blind person, given today's economic condition of those people. employment is difficult to come because if the employer has to pay 70000 rs just to employ a blind employee, he will think 10 times before doing that. and what if the blind person then leaves the job? the investment is waisted. but there are other more important issues as well. think about this case, one of my studant named Balaram from Kerala had a job offer from Taj
group.
they had a software which he was expected to use. but the proprietory software in question was not at all compatible with what he was supposed to use. now, had the source code of this software been open, it would have the possibility of modification and thus being adopted to that particular software. but nither the company took responsibility nor released any part of the software for modification. so the issue is not about cost (the taj group was ready to pay in the above case ), the issue is about the freedom to modify that software and after that use those modifications for who ever got that opportunity to be employed. so one should understand that freedom is not just the matter of philosophy but it applies to practical life.
No one has disputed the practical benefits of free software on this thread. Or are you justifying your mistake by saying the article was absolutely fine? If the case is latter please don't go about giving people the illusion that you are pro freedom in software.
Regards,
- vihan
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
I have handeled the press more than your experience and even after getting the things right, these people have a habbit of not printing the right thing,
Really? In that case you could very well file a grievance with them or even file a case for being misquoted or at least warn them about possible legal action. Unless you screw up things there as well and refuse to be man enough to admit.
I need not learn how to talk to press from you.
then stop screwing up and start apologising.
for your kind information there are audio records of my prdess press conference and you can send them to forensic lab to varify my voice.
i never doubted the authenticity of your voice. Try paying attention to what people have posted. Oh! i forgot you don't do that as you are so full of yourself getting attention or trying to get attention you refuse to understand the laws of action and consequence.
and by the way I had been a reporter myself and even I had done reporting when you were a kid.
You are either lying or really stupid. If you had so much of experience then why did you screw up? Why did you not anticipate this and demand a copy of the article before publication for review?
O.K, so you did screw up and made a mess of things - fine you are only human. So just apologise and be done with. Or is your mammoth of an ego preventing you from doing so?
and I was thinking thta before this email that you were reacting out of lak of knowledge but even after the clearification from people like nagarjun, if you still point fingers at the wrong person then let me tel you that ur your arrogance will take you no where.
You screwed up and refuse to admit it, have not apologised and your stupidity is going to take you straight to hell if you are not careful.
But i suppose you already know that with your years of experience. Pity you haven't learnt a thing from those years of experience, unless you are lying about them or are really stupid.
you say that I said the wrong things even without hearing my breafing. that itself reflects your level of maturity and understanding.
You still don't get it. You should have taken pre-emptive action knowing that journalists misquote people thanks to your alleged years of experience in the line. You didn't - that proves you either made a mistake(for which an apology is required) or you are really stupid.
and one more thing I don't do work for your congradulations or appreciation and I very well know what I do.
Don't bother trying - with that attitude you won't get any from sane people.
at least when I was of your age I was never as rood to tell the person that I am the only knowledgeble person and "who the hel are you?"
If you bothered paying attention my comments you see that all i have done is point out a fact and you simply refuse to acknowledge it and take the appropriate action.
EVERYONE has a right to question everyone else. That is the basis of a democratic society. The people being questioned must either reply till the questioners are satisfied and stop asking questions.
at least after knowing whos mistake it was, I would never send such emails saying "you absolutely don't know how to speak etc." that to without knowing the experience of the person in question.
if i can do something to prevent mistakes from happening in the future by putting the perpetrator to task i'd do it in a heart beat.
The more you brag about your experience the less i am inclined to believe it.
You just can't acknowledge that you made a mistake or you are really stupid.
You talk about maturity and have shown none in going through my comments.
You talk of free software but have no idea of free software culture - which is a democratic one.
I need not mention as nagarjun already did, that I not just breafed about the freedom aspect but also underlined it. and I think you better learn to react properly,
Strange - i'm just asking questions and you haven't been giving any answers. So according to you asking questions qualifies as not ``reacting properly"?
your thoughts were exactly as mine
i see - let me guess you have 50 years of mind reading experience as well right?
were but your words are absolutely smakked with arogance.
Hmm... so according to you asking questions is being arrogant, and not answering them and being egoistic quoting experience is THE quality to have.
Well in that case why do we have this list or that matter any list or forum or meeting at all? Everyone should ought to shut up and let the ``experienced" or allegedly experienced people go ahead and do what unchecked and then we shall have Utopia right Krishnakant?
Oh! i'm sorry i ought to shut up and let him say and do what he wants AND STOP ASKING QUESTIONS. Someone please throw me out and all others who dare to question the ``experienced" or allegedly experienced people.
Regards,
- vihan
----------------------------------
I have handeled the press more than your experience and even after getting the things right, these people have a habbit of not printing the right thing,
----------------------------------
Will you folks please stop generalising about the "press", "media" and "journalists" misquoting, habitually getting things wrong, etc. At least, bother to use the qualifier "some" when you make such statements about a profession... in all fairness to the few who bother to be sincere!
Best wishes! Janani http://gjanani.googlepages.com
Dear Vihan and Krishnakant,
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
Please remember not to attack any one personally on a public mailing list.
Let us stop this name calling and have mercy on other.
I hope, both of you will be able to settle this amicably off-line.
Looking forward to no more mails in this thread.
TIA for your understanding and restrain. With regards,
On 26-Oct-07, at 2:02 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
why? I am enjoying the debate
On Fri, 2007-10-26 at 14:21 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 26-Oct-07, at 2:02 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
why? I am enjoying the debate
it would be more interesting if there was less ad-hominem involved.
-gabin
On Fri, 2007-10-26 at 15:07 +0530, Vihan Pandey wrote:
it would be more interesting if there was less ad-hominem involved.
if you are referring to me spreading ad-hominem :-) its a natural reaction when opposing parties become over defensive and self aggrandising. IMHO.
I was not referring to either of you in particular but both of you in general :)
As a list, only the technical/intellectual arguments are of value. The rest is noise. Humourous noise may be welcomed. Sarcastic noise may be tolerated. Since the on going argument has neither, it only makes sense to tone it down.
-gabin
I was not referring to either of you in particular but both of you in general :)
:-)
As a list, only the technical/intellectual arguments are of value. The rest is noise. Humourous noise may be welcomed. Sarcastic noise may be tolerated. Since the on going argument has neither, it only makes sense to tone it down.
i agree :-)
/me shall tone down /mine :P mails on the topic.
Btw. i believe i have to give you some Anti DRM Stickers, which have been long pending thanks to my laziness :-/
i will mail you off the list about the same :-)
Regards,
- vihan
On 10/26/07, Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Vihan and Krishnakant,
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
Please remember not to attack any one personally on a public mailing list.
or both of you can go get a room.. :) its funny how the most seemingly innocuous posts can get so many knickers in a twist.
Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Vihan and Krishnakant,
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
Please remember not to attack any one personally on a public mailing list.
Let us stop this name calling and have mercy on other.
Hi Dinesh,
It happens very often that discussions with FOSS lovers tend to result in personal attacks or remarks whenever they run out of technical arguments. I have observed this a lot of times whenever I discuss debatable issues. This time both parties are FOSS lovers and they are pulling each other down.
On Friday 26 October 2007 22:02, Rony wrote:
Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Vihan and Krishnakant,
On 10/26/07, Vihan Pandey <> wrote:
On 10/25/07, krishnakant Mane <> wrote:
Both of you can work this out off-line?
Please remember not to attack any one personally on a public mailing list.
Let us stop this name calling and have mercy on other.
Hi Dinesh,
It happens very often that discussions with FOSS lovers tend to result in personal attacks or remarks whenever they run out of technical arguments .
Or when the non foss crowd paints nontech args as gods dispensations, which therfore cant be debated technically and then decide that the ensuing flak is a personal attack.
jtd wrote:
On Friday 26 October 2007 22:02, Rony wrote:
Hi Dinesh,
It happens very often that discussions with FOSS lovers tend to result in personal attacks or remarks whenever they run out of technical arguments .
Or when the non foss crowd paints nontech args as gods dispensations, which therfore cant be debated technically and then decide that the ensuing flak is a personal attack.
They stick to technical points. It is the FOSS guys that take liberties. Personal comments against debating persons are a sign of weakness.
hi siddesh, since you asked this question here is what happened. the Electronic Corporation of Tamilnadu have taken accessibility and computer education of the visually handicap people seriously. and since they only use and implement what they call as open source and we as free software, I was the natural choice for them ones nagarjun told them about my serious work on that aspect. they had to declare this project formally started and so called for a press conference for creating that awareness for the rest of the state. I was to brief the press which I did. I started my breafing with reference to the free software foundation and all the while talked about the free as in freedom aspect. I told them that while cost is one of the issue given the current economic state of most handicap people, what is more important is that the software is developed by the community and that I too came into this to help the community. I also took them a bit off topic from accessibility and told them what kind of a freedom struggle we are fighting and why we are doing so. then there were questions as usual. at the end of the conference I got a number of phone calls and I as per my experience with the press did confirm the facts. but the end result is very bad and I completely agree with vihan as I said time and time again. but instead of debaiting and raising fingers we need to understand that now some other way of making the press understand must be developed. jsut the other day nagarjun who totally understood what happened, suggested me a nice idea and I am putting this on the glug so that every one uses it. just tell the press that the headline will be "cost of proprietory software is x Rs. and cost of free software is willingness to share ". this is what we call realy creative eford. but this only comes from a person who tries to analise what must have happened so can give proper solution. raising fingers at the wrong person never brings out the solutions. any ways we will find out more such ways and I am very sorry for all the glugers whos band width got waisted on this topic. afterall it is a mistake of a dedicated free software person not any one isn't it? any ways, if some thing was ment to be arrogantly personal against me, it is ok forget that, and I really don't want any other free software friend to continue talking in favour of me or any one because that might lead to more rood emails (at least no more from my side since nagarjun sorted it out.) so if at all this thread has to continue, let it go in the direction of how such blunders from the press can be controled, because no matter how uch u tell the press, they still have a "free as in free of charge " mind set and we all must unite and find out wonderful ways like what nagarjun suggested me the other day. more such ideas are welcome. regards, Krishnaknat.
On Sunday 28 Oct 2007 20:45:20 Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Friday 26 October 2007 22:02, Rony wrote:
Hi Dinesh,
It happens very often that discussions with FOSS lovers tend to result in personal attacks or remarks whenever they run out of technical arguments .
Or when the non foss crowd paints nontech args as gods dispensations, which therfore cant be debated technically and then decide that the ensuing flak is a personal attack.
They stick to technical points. It is the FOSS guys that take liberties. Personal comments against debating persons are a sign of weakness.
*gollum gollum*
On Friday 26 October 2007 14:02, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Vihan and Krishnakant,
Let us stop this name calling and have mercy on other.
I hope, both of you will be able to settle this amicably off-line.
Looking forward to no more mails in this thread.
Especially since Dr. Nag clarified the contents of the interview and the journo decided to print only parts.
Also methinks Krishankant is quite tuned in to the GNU and freedom aspects.
and by the way I am no more upset. what ever happened was obvious and vihan's reactions were not just proper but very prompt. they only came to the wrong person. so Vihan -> kk *hand shake * regards. Krishnakant.
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 11:58 +0530, jtd wrote:
Also methinks Krishankant is quite tuned in to the GNU and freedom aspects.
<without prejudice> Being tuned in and being able to tune an indifferent media person are quite different. </without prejudice>
-gabin
On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:38, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 11:58 +0530, jtd wrote:
Also methinks Krishankant is quite tuned in to the GNU and freedom aspects.
<without prejudice> Being tuned in and being able to tune an indifferent media person are quite different. </without prejudice>
Agreed agreed. We cant shoot our messengers - except on the list ;- ). Extreme patience and a request to highlight the freedom aspect (in the form of some smart soundbyte) when dealing with an inherently complex techno / ideological subject would be in order i suppose.
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 12:34 +0530, jtd wrote:
Agreed agreed. We cant shoot our messengers - except on the list ;- ).
Oh, they're not shot but flamed to a crisp :)
Extreme patience and a request to highlight the freedom aspect (in the form of some smart soundbyte) when dealing with an inherently complex techno / ideological subject would be in order i suppose.
I really don't have much experience in dealing with the press but my experience in dealing with humanity in general seems to indicate that people are lazy and like to have their work already done for them. So, from a press conference point of view I guess, the entire presentation has to be made in the form of soundbites, one-line plus image of cute kid slides and a nice press kit with the article already written :)
-gabin
On 29-Oct-07, at 1:04 PM, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
from a press conference point of view I guess, the entire presentation has to be made in the form of soundbites, one-line plus image of cute kid slides and a nice press kit with the article already written :)
as already mentioned, ply them with alcohol and write the whole thing for them - the editor will of course randomly snip things, but I have found that one can achieve as high as 60% accuracy by this method
from a press conference point of view I guess, the entire presentation has to be made in the form of soundbites, one-line plus image of cute kid slides and a nice press kit with the article already written :)
as already mentioned, ply them with alcohol and write the whole thing for them - the editor will of course randomly snip things, but I have found that one can achieve as high as 60% accuracy by this method
There is a foolproof method followed by many of us these days -- it's called "playback for fact-check" -- we send the final copy for approval to the interviewee to avoid any discrepancies due to misinterpretation. And, all interviewees/featured can demand that the journalist show them the EDITED draft of the article before it goes to print. Just that the interviewee needs to be prompt in responding with any corrections needed, so that the editorial process doesn't get delayed. But that avoids most problems.
However, it is possible mainly in the case of magazines/websites/weekly publications/supplements -- I am not sure if it works for dailies.
Cheers! Janani
On 10/30/07, Janani Gopalakrishnan writetojanani@gmail.com wrote:
There is a foolproof method followed by many of us these days -- it's called "playback for fact-check" -- we send the final copy for approval to the interviewee to avoid any discrepancies due to misinterpretation.
i wouldn't say its foolproof as at times the article MAY even after approval by the interviewee goes back to the uber editor and last minute ``unfortunate space saving cuts" end up being made :-) At times important content may end up get mangled or skipped in the process.
And, all interviewees/featured can demand that the journalist show them the EDITED draft of the article before it goes to print. Just that the interviewee needs to be prompt in responding with any corrections needed, so that the editorial process doesn't get delayed. But that avoids most problems.
Agreed.
However, it is possible mainly in the case of magazines/websites/weekly publications/supplements -- I am not sure if it works for dailies.
i cannot comment on that as i do not have the required experience in the media :-) Perhaps someone who actually does could shed some light on this.
Regards,
- vihan
There is a foolproof method followed by many of us these days -- it's called "playback for fact-check" -- we send the final copy for approval to the interviewee to avoid any discrepancies due to misinterpretation.
i wouldn't say its foolproof as at times the article MAY even after approval by the interviewee goes back to the uber editor and last minute ``unfortunate space saving cuts" end up being made :-) At times important content may end up get mangled or skipped in the process.
Frankly, we freelancers have a bit of power in our hands in that respect -- to say "NO!" We may not be able to avoid such cuts by the uber-editor. But when that happens, we can always go back to the editor and say, "Next time you do that, I won't write for you!" Or, where we think that won't have any effect, just ignore the publication. I might not be a *big* writer and my cold shoulder might not even be noticed, but at least, as a writer, I have the satisfaction of ensuring quality.
One publication I stopped writing for (because they randomly snipped paras -- I waited till two such instances, to give them the benefit of doubt) although the name would have looked good in my resume, is The Hindu. And one publication where I've not had that problem with is Linux For You and its sister publications -- they've (almost) always cooperated and sent me the final draft for checking (post editing) -- so there aren't any rude surprises when I see the work in print!
And frankly, the interviewees also have a role to play here. Every time they find a misinterpretation by the author, they *must* write to the editors and bring it to their notice -- because, whether it was the author's mistake or the editor's random editing, they will at least know that interviewees/readers object to such practices!
It's like the choice between FOSS and proprietory. Here, it's a choice between quality and money/reputation.
Cheers! Janani
On 10/31/07, Janani Gopalakrishnan writetojanani@gmail.com wrote:
Frankly, we freelancers have a bit of power in our hands in that respect -- to say "NO!" We may not be able to avoid such cuts by the uber-editor. But when that happens, we can always go back to the editor and say, "Next timeat you do that, I won't write for you!"
Well said! :-) It always feels good when i see that people are willing to take a stand to do the right thing :-)
Or, where we think that won't have any effect, just ignore the publication. I might not be a *big* writer and my cold shoulder might not even be noticed, but at least, as a writer, I have the satisfaction of ensuring quality.
i would say its more about ethics rather than quality in this case.
One publication I stopped writing for (because they randomly snipped paras -- I waited till two such instances, to give them the benefit of doubt) although the name would have looked good in my resume, is The Hindu. And one publication where I've not had that problem with is Linux For You and its sister publications -- they've (almost) always cooperated and sent me the final draft for checking (post editing) -- so there aren't any rude surprises when I see the work in print!
This is indeed VERY useful information and its wonderful that you are sharing it with all of us. Thanks!!!
i sincerely hope people - ESPECIALLY ``experienced" people who keep talking to the media are listening.
And frankly, the interviewees also have a role to play here. Every time they find a misinterpretation by the author, they *must* write to the editors and bring it to their notice -- because, whether it was the author's mistake or the editor's random editing, they will at least know that interviewees/readers object to such practices!
i second that.
It's like the choice between FOSS and proprietory. Here, it's a choice between quality and money/reputation.
Err... i wouldn't use that analogy as FOSS - Free and Open Source Software is literally translated as being about about Freedom and Quality.
Regards,
- vihan
On 11/1/07, Janani Gopalakrishnan writetojanani@gmail.com wrote:
Err... i wouldn't use that analogy as FOSS - Free and Open Source Software is literally translated as being about about Freedom and Quality.
Yeah, and good journalism is also about Freedom and Quality, right?
i'm no expert :-) but yes i would agree with that. My reason for disagreeing with that analogy was :
<snip> On 10/31/07, Janani Gopalakrishnan writetojanani@gmail.com wrote: ... ... ... It's like the choice between FOSS and proprietory. Here, it's a choice between quality and money/reputation. ... ... ... </snip>
Regards,
- vihan
hello JTD, Manoj, Siddesh etc. thanks for at last taking this thread to a very productive discussion. people who want to continue on personal grudges or oppologies may continue because we have no time to stop them. I completely agree that we need to find out some very "headline " or "catchy " way of making media get the message through to the public. I have done many such conferences and camps. we for example recently had a Digital Bridge camp in Nasik where I was the main resource person and Nagarjun was also present for the very well talked about presentations on self and also a few more. that time I did highlite the freedom aspect as usual but it went pritty well. through the years I realise that we need to keep on inventing more and more ways of making the media understand what we are talking. only thing that matters is how we show the practical aspect of how free as in freedom effect the daily computing needs of even a common man. this should also extent to the business world where cost may be one of the issues. but that should not stop there, ones the business community realises the cost effective aspect then they must be made to understand that the value that they have to pay is in terms of time and perhaps even money if they were to customise the software. the dynamics are a bit different when it comes to NGO's and other organisations in the social sector. so let's discuss as to how we can make media get the message clear. afterall all the media today wants to make a sensational story and we need to talk different language to them to make them feel that this is indeed important at the practical level and is nothing to do with a evangualist phelosophy of a few. like for example I made a mention about one case in Kerala which was also mentioned on this thread. that is a pure example of how freedom is more important than cost. the person in consideration had got job offer from taj group and they were even ready to pay for the modifications to the proprietory screen reader, but due to its closed non free as in freedom nature, nothing could be done. so things like time is what it takes to pay for free software, free software frees the user from the evils of one vendor monopoly and free software is culture not brand can be used. any comments? regards, Krishnakant.
On 10/29/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
hello JTD, Manoj, Siddesh etc. thanks for at last taking this thread to a very productive discussion. people who want to continue on personal grudges or oppologies may continue because we have no time to stop them.
Hmm...
To the point - impending strife And digressed - a happier life...
/me awaits with bated breath for the rest of the press articles and other assorted information which have been promised to be delivered.
Regards,
- vihan
On Monday 29 October 2007 14:00, Vihan Pandey wrote:
On 10/29/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
hello JTD, Manoj, Siddesh etc. thanks for at last taking this thread to a very productive discussion. people who want to continue on personal grudges or oppologies may continue because we have no time to stop them.
/me awaits with bated breath for the rest of the press articles
Dont - lack of oxygen makes living difficult ;-).
But you might start a wiki page. The purpose would be to highilight the fredom aspect and provide a proper short history of computing / software and the role of free software and FSF in the industry.
/me awaits with bated breath for the rest of the press articles
Dont - lack of oxygen makes living difficult ;-).
/me awaits with bated breath for the rest of the press articles with equipped paramedics on standby :P
But you might start a wiki page. The purpose would be to highilight the fredom aspect and provide a proper short history of computing / software and the role of free software and FSF in the industry.
That sounds like a good idea. i'll do it.
Regards,
- vihan
On 24-Oct-07, at 3:55 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
it doesnt - perhaps you are too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom. If you had, you wouldnt spout tripe like this.
'Tis true that i am ``too young to have gone through periods in our nation's history where people *really* shed *real* blood, were tortured, starved and killed for freedom".
strangely enough, if you are eager to shed blood, get imprisoned or even give up your life for freedom, there are still opotunities in India - lots of places where farmers and tribals are fighting oppression - or if you want to be an international martyr, that too can be arranged
But perhaps you have forgotten that some people actually bother to read History books and get angry to see mankind repeating its mistakes and misdeeds time after time. Tyranny is tyranny let it be the KGB putting restrictions on who could use the photocopier and for what or governments supporting DRM to suppress what information can be shared and what can't.
kgb, hitler stalin et al != microsoft
K.G, i'm not belittling the sacrifices of our nations freedom fighters. i'm just saying its wrong for us to ignore those who are fighting for freedom and liberty in software and if we have an oppertunity to say something about it - we should.
I am afraid you are belittling it - dont equate an intellectual war with a physical one. Just think of those whistle blowers who got killed for exposing corruption - and are getting killed every now and then in India.
On 10/24/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
kgb, hitler stalin et al != microsoft
dirty corporations + power hungry oppressive governments = kgb, hitler stalin et al and worse.
I am afraid you are belittling it
That is an incorrect conclusion.
- dont equate an intellectual war with a physical one.
This is a different time. We live in the knowledge age wherein our knowledge ends up being encoded and transferred into computers. This IS a struggle for saving our knowledge, our culture, and all that we hold dear from being locked out.
and just because it is an intellectual war and not YET a physical one - does that make it less important?
Just think of those whistle blowers who got killed for exposing corruption - and are getting killed every now and then in India.
i do. But do you consider the those dedicated to the FSF to not be revolutionaries?
Regards,
- vihan
At the outset, I would like to clarify the question of age. When I said that you were too young to understand, I did not mean to imply that the older a person gets, the wiser he is. All I meant is that the last revolutionary movement in India took place around 1976 when the emergency was on. I personaly lost many friends and co-workers and many of us suffered a lot to bring huge amount of freedom for the next generation. We Indians are an ahistorical race, and even those who suffered through the emergency appear to have forgotten the terror that was unleashed on the public. That said, pointwise reply:
On 25-Oct-07, at 1:52 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
On 10/24/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
kgb, hitler stalin et al != microsoft
dirty corporations + power hungry oppressive governments = kgb, hitler stalin et al and worse.
precisely which dirty corporations+ powerhungry oppressive governments are you equating with hitler and stalin? Have you the faintest clues as to what you are talking about
I am afraid you are belittling it
That is an incorrect conclusion.
so who do you equate the fsf martyrs to - Mangal Pande? Bhagat Singh? Nelson Mandela? Ho Che Minh? Che Guevara?
- dont equate an intellectual war with a physical one.
This is a different time. We live in the knowledge age wherein our knowledge ends up being encoded and transferred into computers. This IS a struggle for saving our knowledge, our culture, and all that we hold dear from being locked out.
yes, *we* live in a knowledge age. We members of this list, none of whom earns less than 3 lakhs a year. But 99 crores of people in India do not live there
and just because it is an intellectual war and not YET a physical one
- does that make it less important?
yes - almost irrelevant. Fighting Monsanto is relevant - thousands of farmers commit suicide because of Monsanto
Just think of those whistle blowers who got killed for exposing corruption - and are getting killed every now and then in India.
i do. But do you consider the those dedicated to the FSF to not be revolutionaries?
no, and if you think so, you have no idea of what revolution is.
On 10/25/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
At the outset, I would like to clarify the question of age. When I said that you were too young to understand, I did not mean to imply that the older a person gets, the wiser he is.
Thank You.
All I meant is that the last revolutionary movement in India took place around 1976 when the emergency was on. I personaly lost many friends and co-workers and many of us suffered a lot to bring huge amount of freedom for the next generation. We Indians are an ahistorical race, and even those who suffered through the emergency appear to have forgotten the terror that was unleashed on the public. That said, pointwise reply:
Kenneth, i did not know this. My condolences and let me say that it has been a priviledge to know you.
precisely which dirty corporations+ powerhungry oppressive governments are you equating with hitler and stalin? Have you the faintest clues as to what you are talking about
Yes i do.
Bush Administration + Halliburton = ???
so who do you equate the fsf martyrs to - Mangal Pande? Bhagat Singh? Nelson Mandela? Ho Che Minh? Che Guevara?
There no question of comparison. In fact that comparison would be a cardinal sin on our part.
yes, *we* live in a knowledge age. We members of this list, none of whom earns less than 3 lakhs a year. But 99 crores of people in India do not live there
Agreed.
yes - almost irrelevant. Fighting Monsanto is relevant - thousands of farmers commit suicide because of Monsanto
almost to some but no so to others. Regarding Monsanto i agree.
i do. But do you consider the those dedicated to the FSF to not be revolutionaries?
no, and if you think so, you have no idea of what revolution is.
http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/rms-ati-protest.html
Moreover lets not try and predict what the future may hold, for it generally surprises everyone.
Regards,
- vihan
On 26-Oct-07, at 2:32 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
no, and if you think so, you have no idea of what revolution is.
http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/rms-ati-protest.html
Moreover lets not try and predict what the future may hold, for it generally surprises everyone.
there are a lot of movements going on - greenpeace, organic farming, anti pollution, free software, ... these are not revolutionary movements. They are movements to improve the quality of life. There are also revolutionary movements that work to overthrow - with violence - unjust regimes. Please do not confuse the two.
there are a lot of movements going on - greenpeace, organic farming, anti pollution, free software, ... these are not revolutionary movements. They are movements to improve the quality of life. There are also revolutionary movements that work to overthrow - with violence - unjust regimes. Please do not confuse the two.
i'm not.
Regards,
- vihan
On Thursday 25 October 2007 15:18, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
This is a different time. We live in the knowledge age wherein our knowledge ends up being encoded and transferred into computers. This IS a struggle for saving our knowledge, our culture, and all that we hold dear from being locked out.
no, and if you think so, you have no idea of what revolution is.
Agreed. But lets not wait for the time when one has to do all those inhuman things, making the oppressed and the oppressors look the same color of blood red.
Artificial shortages of the tools and methods (read as markets, finance, skill, etc) for work is one reason for much of the farmers (and others) misery. Making a meaningful contribution to change immediately the situtations you point out may not be within the ambit of this list's skills. But unlocking hardware and software is one area that will impact everyone greatly, as these (hopefully) become tools of the 99million who barely exist.
On 23/10/2007, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
who paid with blood and lives for free software?
just FYI, giving up your life does not mean ending up dead, it could also mean giving up the substantially better life you could have had.
On 29-Oct-07, at 1:57 PM, Philip Tellis wrote:
who paid with blood and lives for free software?
just FYI, giving up your life does not mean ending up dead, it could also mean giving up the substantially better life you could have had.
ok, so who did that? And do you have a figurative explanation for shedding blood also?
In this group there are some people who really don't want to contribute them self in the project or our mission. they just only want to fight on a small things which can be sorted out in one or two mails. Instead of this they are just arguing and disturbing other people who want contribute something. I'm really sorry if i made any wrong statement.
On 10/29/07, mukesh yadav mak.gnu@gmail.com wrote:
In this group there are some people who really don't want to contribute them self in the project or our mission. they just only want to fight on a small things which can be sorted out in one or two mails. Instead of this they are just arguing and disturbing other people who want contribute something. I'm really sorry if i made any wrong statement.
Oh! don't be sorry now. Why don't you just give your opinion vis a vis which person(s) in your opinion is doing right and which is doing wrong and see how he/she/they :P respond.
Regards,
- vihan
On Monday 29 October 2007 23:42, mukesh yadav wrote:
In this group there are some people who really don't want to contribute them self in the project or our mission. they just only want to fight on a small things which can be sorted out in one or two mails.
If by small things u mean the non tech rants, you rae mistaken. Sadly the fight is political, with foss technical superiority being merely a nice side effect of the foss model. Otoh any (most) percieved tech superiority in closed systems can be traced back to patents and politics.
On 11/2/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Monday 29 October 2007 23:42, mukesh yadav wrote:
In this group there are some people who really don't want to contribute them self in the project or our mission. they just only want to fight on a small things which can be sorted out in one or two mails.
If by small things u mean the non tech rants, you rae mistaken. Sadly the fight is political, with foss technical superiority being merely a nice side effect of the foss model. Otoh any (most) percieved tech superiority in closed systems can be traced back to patents and politics.
Very true.. i am for abolishing of patents... These closed system vendors are wasting the knowledge base of their own techie staff!! Locking it up for good..
Quoting "Kamaleshwar Morjal [???????? ??????]" kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com:
Very true.. i am for abolishing of patents... These closed system vendors are wasting the knowledge base of their own techie staff!! Locking it up for good..
You mean, abolishing "Software Patents"? There are several fields where patents are used the way they were expected to. But then, that is out of topic.
Anurag
On 02-Nov-07, at 2:37 PM, Anurag wrote:
You mean, abolishing "Software Patents"? There are several fields where patents are used the way they were expected to.
like?
On 02-Nov-07, at 2:37 PM, Anurag wrote:
You mean, abolishing "Software Patents"? There are several fields where patents are used the way they were expected to.
like?
patents are always used only and only to lock up knowledge and sometimes much more than that.. the freedom to think. the way you think.. patents are an inhuman concept.. a corrupt concept and till date i haven't come across any valid justification of software patents (or any patents for that matter) except (treacherous) business sense that is absolutely questionable.. there are many more efficient and *human* ways to attribute the hard work of people in whatever field they are working!! Sorry for going off-topic but this thread already seems way of course... <tinfoilOn> just hijacking an already hijacked thread :p </tinfoilOn>
Regards.
On Friday 02 November 2007 14:37, Anurag wrote:
Quoting "Kamaleshwar Morjal [???????? ??????]"
Very true.. i am for abolishing of patents... These closed system vendors are wasting the knowledge base of their own techie staff!! Locking it up for good..
You mean, abolishing "Software Patents"? There are several fields where patents are used the way they were expected to. But then, that is out of topic.
The original basis for patents was to provide society the benefit of knowledge by publishing that knowledge (not as many erroneously believe to merely benefit the inventor). The inventor was compensated for this sharing with a limited period monopoly on the commercial application of the knowledge in a device. Patents did not prohibit independent invention of a similiar device, substantial improvement of the device or non commercial use of the patented device. Gradually the whole process was totally corrupted. Also the original premise was valid for a different era 300 yrs ago with scant understanding about the nature of knowledge and it's inability to exist in a vaccum. Patents only slow down the benefits of technology to society - irrespective of the "high cost of research" spin the pharma companies love to dish out.
On 02-Nov-07, at 5:55 PM, jtd wrote:
Patents only slow down the benefits of technology to society - irrespective of the "high cost of research" spin the pharma companies love to dish out.
in fact software patents are just the tip of the iceberg - think of all the patents americans are getting on our traditional knowledge - imagine paying royalty every time you use a neem twig to brush your teeth, or when you do your morning shirsaasana
On Saturday 03 November 2007 07:55, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 02-Nov-07, at 5:55 PM, jtd wrote:
Patents only slow down the benefits of technology to society - irrespective of the "high cost of research" spin the pharma companies love to dish out.
or when you do your morning shirsaasana
Yes that one takes the cake. Some smartass in the US patenting some asana / meditation or some such.
On 10/23/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
i find this article to absolutely disgusting as ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION has been made of the GNU, or the Gnome Project both of which are responsible for the Orca project being there in the first place.
Lets consider the example of a laptop. A tech magazine is bound to cover aspects of the laptop such as size, processor, memory, storage, wifi, etc. This will give more or less full justice to whatever has gone behind the making of the laptop.
A fashion mag on the other hand will only talk about how *cool* the laptop looks, how it is a chick magnet, how eyeballs will follow it wherever you go (sony vaio?) and how 'everyone who is anyone' owns one and hence, you should too.
The point is that the article featured in "Rediff Money", so it's no wonder that the journalist chose to highlight the monetary aspect of the software. I understand that it is sacrilege according to you and many others that the mukti aspect was not highlighted; even I feel the free aspect should have been atleast mentioned, if not elaborated. But if you see the theme of the medium, you'll see why it didn't really happen the way you wish it should have.
On 10/26/07, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/23/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
i find this article to absolutely disgusting as ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION has been made of the GNU, or the Gnome Project both of which are responsible for the Orca project being there in the first place.
Lets consider the example of a laptop. A tech magazine is bound to cover aspects of the laptop such as size, processor, memory, storage, wifi, etc. This will give more or less full justice to whatever has gone behind the making of the laptop.
A fashion mag on the other hand will only talk about how *cool* the laptop looks, how it is a chick magnet, how eyeballs will follow it wherever you go (sony vaio?) and how 'everyone who is anyone' owns one and hence, you should too.
The point is that the article featured in "Rediff Money", so it's no wonder that the journalist chose to highlight the monetary aspect of the software. I understand that it is sacrilege according to you and many others that the mukti aspect was not highlighted; even I feel the free aspect should have been atleast mentioned, if not elaborated. But if you see the theme of the medium, you'll see why it didn't really happen the way you wish it should have.
The person concerned went as a representative of FSF India and thus should have left no stone unturned in making sure its ideals were properly represented. However the person concerned failed in doing so and i happened to point that out. Representing an organisation or even a school of thought is a big responsibility and must be handled with care that was not done in this case.
After reading my mail the person concerned responded by simply touting his experience and placing the blame squarely on the media and unilaterally absolving himself of all responsibility which IMHO is not the way things are done. You have to keep the media under check by making sure you are not misquoted or quoted out of context by demanding to have a look at the article before publication. Or you simply put pre-conditions to the reporter to mention the following (independently verifiable) facts before giving the interview. Apparently none of this seems to have been done in this case.
On me pointing that out the person concerned touted even more ``experience" including 5 years with the media. That statement raised a LOT of interesting questions most of which i put forward and am still awaiting a reply. The person concerned also implied that i had no right to ask these questions because of my age, which according to him was far too less to have asked those questions. Well if age and ``experience" is a pre-condition to ask questions then we probably ought to put an age and/or ``experience" restriction on who can ask questions on this list and who can't.
While you point does explain how this happened it does not change the fact that the a person made a mistake. In fact he still has not admitted he made one nor apologised for the harm done. Moreover if we are talking about ideals - it has to be consistent from publication to publication. If we send mixed ideals to suit our convinience - just so we get coverage - well IMHO, in that case we are not really being representatives of those ideals but cheap media attention whores.
Regards,
- vihan
On 28/10/2007, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
The person concerned went as a representative of FSF India and thus should have left no stone unturned in making sure its ideals were properly represented. However the person concerned failed in doing so
I think it is very wrong to point fingers at a person who is so dedicated towards the mission without first trying to confirm facts. and this has been mentioned time and time again by yours truely as well as nagarjun as to who was the culprit. but even after all this if one person keeps on pointing fingers at the person in question then I can only say one thing. the freedom fighters might not be encouraged to take this as a good insentive. if my breafing started with the mention to fsf and the free software moment, and in my breafing to the press I did not even mention ones about the cost factor and after doing this (for me this is not a new thing), if people instead of bashing the press are going to talk roodly to the person himself, then I modestly leave it to the readers to conclude if this is some thing a person wants to have some thing personal in the mission or ... I think firstly if I am feeling bad about a certain article, I would first talk to the known person in the circle who is well known promoter of "free software " and confirm what happened. I would also ask certain respected people if they have any idea about the real facts. so if press made a mistake I would go to the source of that article and comment there if I was really by hart concerned about the problem and not to show some one "how great a freedom fighter I am ". I am not saying much because we must unite and fight the evils of proprietry software. but that's me, if this same thing would have happened with some one else, the situation would have been different. you see, after talking about all the free as in freedom aspect and confirming the same with the press, if people raise fingers at a dedicated person, then I doubt how many will sustain like I do. I don't need credit for what I do because I am doing it for the cause and the freedom of the community, but at the same time disregarding some ones efords is also not very encouraging. the entire mis understanding started when the comments came on the glug instead of on the rediff page where the rediff guys are most likely to see. that is what my colligue alpesh did because his anger was on the press and not on me. but on this email I was the one who would be reading and rediff was most unlikely to read it, so who was the target? any ways I have written this email no to bash vihan or some one (afterall his thoughts were the same as me except the words ), but to clearify things so people can understand my strong reactions. if some one wants to hear my press breafing, please email me off the list and I will arange to send a cd. regards, Krishnakant.
and i happened to point that out. Representing an organisation or even a school of thought is a big responsibility and must be handled with care that was not done in this case.
After reading my mail the person concerned responded by simply touting his experience and placing the blame squarely on the media and unilaterally absolving himself of all responsibility which IMHO is not the way things are done. You have to keep the media under check by making sure you are not misquoted or quoted out of context by demanding to have a look at the article before publication. Or you simply put pre-conditions to the reporter to mention the following (independently verifiable) facts before giving the interview. Apparently none of this seems to have been done in this case.
On me pointing that out the person concerned touted even more ``experience" including 5 years with the media. That statement raised a LOT of interesting questions most of which i put forward and am still awaiting a reply. The person concerned also implied that i had no right to ask these questions because of my age, which according to him was far too less to have asked those questions. Well if age and ``experience" is a pre-condition to ask questions then we probably ought to put an age and/or ``experience" restriction on who can ask questions on this list and who can't.
While you point does explain how this happened it does not change the fact that the a person made a mistake. In fact he still has not admitted he made one nor apologised for the harm done. Moreover if we are talking about ideals - it has to be consistent from publication to publication. If we send mixed ideals to suit our convinience - just so we get coverage - well IMHO, in that case we are not really being representatives of those ideals but cheap media attention whores.
Regards,
- vihan
On 10/28/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
On 28/10/2007, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
The person concerned went as a representative of FSF India and thus should have left no stone unturned in making sure its ideals were properly represented. However the person concerned failed in doing so
I think it is very wrong to point fingers at a person who is so dedicated towards the mission without first trying to confirm facts.
Fact confirmation is a post damage situation and to assume that it will be done by all the readers of the article is being extremely naive. Insistence on pre-emptive prevention in the future is really the only cure for situations like this.
and this has been mentioned time and time again by yours truely as well as nagarjun as to who was the culprit.
Indeed and care must be taken that such things don't happen again.
but even after all this if one person keeps on pointing fingers at the person in question then I can only say one thing. the freedom fighters might not be encouraged to take this as a good insentive.
Real freedom fighters do not need ``incentive" they have their cause and they are willing to do what it takes against all odds.
if my breafing started with the mention to fsf and the free software moment, and in my breafing to the press I did not even mention ones about the cost factor and after doing this (for me this is not a new thing), if people instead of bashing the press are going to talk roodly to the person himself,
As i have mentioned before action and consequence.
then I modestly leave it to the readers to conclude if this is some thing a person wants to have some thing personal in the mission or ...
Hmm... no has so far said the article was a magnificent piece of art and it met its objectives of educating the people about Free Software and FSF(while crediting the GNU and Gnome projects as in this case). IMHO that is generally the objective when an FSF representative speaks to the press. More so when that person is ``experienced".
I think firstly if I am feeling bad about a certain article, I would first talk to the known person in the circle who is well known promoter of "free software " and confirm what happened.
You ought to do more. You ought to take action on this and make sure it NEVER happens again.
I would also ask certain respected people if they have any idea about the real facts.
How many of the hundreds, or thousands or even probably millions who have read that article have ``any idea about the real facts" or will even bother? You still don't seem to get that. The damage has already been done. Now start post damage operations.
so if press made a mistake I would go to the source of that article and comment there if I was really by hart concerned about the problem and not to show some one "how great a freedom fighter I am ". I am not saying much because we must unite and fight the evils of proprietry software.
Learning how to deal with the media is a part of that objective and you must educate yourself in the same. Harping about your experience will not change that.
but that's me, if this same thing would have happened with some one else, the situation would have been different.
How so?
you see, after talking about all the free as in freedom aspect and confirming the same with the press, if people raise fingers at a dedicated person, then I doubt how many will sustain like I do.
If one sincerely believes in one's ideals then one has to stand the test of torture at times to continue abiding by them. It has happened to the best of men and women in the worst of times. Those of profound character face these tests and emerge out victorious.
I don't need credit for what I do because I am doing it for the cause and the freedom of the community, but at the same time disregarding some ones efords is also not very encouraging.
Then why do you react as if you do?
the entire mis understanding started when the comments came on the glug instead of on the rediff page where the rediff guys are most likely to see. that is what my colligue alpesh did because his anger was on the press and not on me.
Interesting. i would love to hear what Alpesh has to say on this.
but on this email I was the one who would be reading and rediff was most unlikely to read it, so who was the target?
Oh i believe i made that very clear.
any ways I have written this email no to bash vihan or some one
Please feel free to react as you see fit and i shall respond in kind.
(afterall his thoughts were the same as me except the words )
Please don't go about as if you can read minds. In all your mails you have still not yet answered most of my questions.
, but to clearify things so people can understand my strong reactions. if some one wants to hear my press breafing, please email me off the list and I will arange to send a cd.
Please do that and make sure the upper echelons of rediff also go through it and make sure they apologise appropriately and after that you can render your apology as well.
Regards,
- vihan
On 10/28/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
Please do that and make sure the upper echelons of rediff also go through it and make sure they apologise appropriately and after that you can render your apology as well.
Could Krishnakant/Dr. Nagarjuna please clarify how was it that this press conference came about? What was the theme of the conference? Were there any journalists other than that from Rediff Money involved? If yes then it would be worthwhile going through links to their articles as well to see how they did.
The point is that if it was Rediff Money that approached Krishnakant for an interview regarding this 'low cost software' then they are well within their right to ignore whatever Krishnakant said about freedom, FSF, etc and post only what concerns them -- low cost software for the visually impaired.
Also, I guess the author probably preferred to use Linux as against GNU, FSF, etc since it's simply a better known name, hence relating to a larger audience. To his credit, he at least mentioned 'open source' next to free so that it is not confused with free(beer).
<flame-shield>What is it about GNU/FSF and credits anyways? Somehow nobody in businesses want to mention their name on anything ;)</flame-shield>
On 10/28/07, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/28/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
Please do that and make sure the upper echelons of rediff also go through it and make sure they apologise appropriately and after that you can render your apology as well.
Could Krishnakant/Dr. Nagarjuna please clarify how was it that this press conference came about? What was the theme of the conference? Were there any journalists other than that from Rediff Money involved? If yes then it would be worthwhile going through links to their articles as well to see how they did.
The point is that if it was Rediff Money that approached Krishnakant for an interview regarding this 'low cost software' then they are well within their right to ignore whatever Krishnakant said about freedom, FSF, etc and post only what concerns them -- low cost software for the visually impaired.
Also, I guess the author probably preferred to use Linux as against GNU, FSF, etc since it's simply a better known name, hence relating to a larger audience. To his credit, he at least mentioned 'open source' next to free so that it is not confused with free(beer).
<flame-shield>What is it about GNU/FSF and credits anyways? Somehow nobody in businesses want to mention their name on anything ;)</flame-shield>
-- Siddhesh Poyarekar http://siddhesh.in
I hope most are aware that several such "interviews" whether bollywood, corporate, political are staged? Similar to paying big bucks to getting yourself on Page 3 type scenario and having your raunchy music videos aired on MTV/V/B4U...
So one way of getting positive sound bytes is to stage such positive interviews where we can get in whatever we want.. just need a compliant journalist.. and there are plenty out there i am sure. There are several precedents since mythological times where the end has justified the vily means of even our Gods. And seeing the kind of junk that appears in mumbai mirror and mid-day i am sure they would be more than happy to get some of the good (admittedly geeky) stuff in.
Of course, for the current perceived debacle we can always blame the foreign hand.. Seriously though, the warring factions need to get piss drunk together and put all of this behind them.
Abhishek Daga wrote:
I hope most are aware that several such "interviews" whether bollywood, corporate, political are staged? Similar to paying big bucks to getting yourself on Page 3 type scenario and having your raunchy music videos aired on MTV/V/B4U...
Very true. This is a shady business that's given a decent name called PR by the media who's out to sell its space to the highest bidder.
So one way of getting positive sound bytes is to stage such positive interviews where we can get in whatever we want.. just need a compliant journalist.. and there are plenty out there i am sure. There are several precedents since mythological times where the end has justified the vily means of even our Gods.
We do have a journalist ( FN ) who is dedicated to FOSS and writes about its events in the press and is a member of many GLUGs too. Why not co-ordinate with him.
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:14:22 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com said:
What is it about GNU/FSF and credits anyways? Somehow nobody in businesses want to mention their name on anything ;)
No, businesses care about the money. Getting credit is only relevant if it gets publicity that gets more money, but that is an indirect benefit.
In free software, what is in it for the authors? For a large segment, getting the credit, and the recognition that follows, is _it_. Eben Moglen commented on this to some extent in the recent Theo/BSD/LKML scrap about credits for driver code.
So, not very surprising; if all one gets paid in is the coin of recognition, stealing credits gets to be very important. Try stealing money from businesses, they too kinda tend to get all hot and bothered about silly little barter tokens they call money.
manoj
On 10/29/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
In free software, what is in it for the authors? For a largesegment, getting the credit, and the recognition that follows, is _it_. Eben Moglen commented on this to some extent in the recent Theo/BSD/LKML scrap about credits for driver code.
Yes, I understand that since I too would be pissed if someone doesn't give me credit for my work. But it's very strange that businesses are willing to give credit to projects like Linux, Eclipse, Firefox, OOo, etc. but always somehow keep GNU at an arms length.
I guess one of the key factors is that GNU has mostly contributed to the base system (shell, tools, compiler, etc.), which can easily go unnoticed for these business users -- only geeks are in a position to acknowledge that. Other GNU software like Gnome and various related software (gtk, Evolution, Gimp, etc) have their unique branding and hence it doesn't matter whether businesses speak up for them. Even there though, GNU or FSF don't get so much as a mention.
Eclipse, OOo, Firefox, etc on the other hand have corporate backing, so it's natural that businesses take every chance to bask in their glory.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:32:29 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com said:
On 10/29/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
In free software, what is in it for the authors? For a large segment, getting the credit, and the recognition that follows, is _it_. Eben Moglen commented on this to some extent in the recent Theo/BSD/LKML scrap about credits for driver code.
Yes, I understand that since I too would be pissed if someone doesn't give me credit for my work. But it's very strange that businesses are willing to give credit to projects like Linux, Eclipse, Firefox, OOo, etc. but always somehow keep GNU at an arms length.
I guess one of the key factors is that GNU has mostly contributed to the base system (shell, tools, compiler, etc.), which can easily go unnoticed for these business users -- only geeks are in a position to acknowledge that. Other GNU software like Gnome and various related software (gtk, Evolution, Gimp, etc) have their unique branding and hence it doesn't matter whether businesses speak up for them. Even there though, GNU or FSF don't get so much as a mention.
Eclipse, OOo, Firefox, etc on the other hand have corporate backing, so it's natural that businesses take every chance to bask in their glory.
Is this another argument in favour of Debian GNU/Linux? :)
manoj
On 10/29/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
Is this another argument in favour of Debian GNU/Linux? :)
All roads lead to Debian, the one true distro that will save the believers when the world is about to end ;)
On 30-Oct-07, at 7:32 AM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Is this another argument in favour of Debian GNU/Linux? :)All roads lead to Debian, the one true distro that will save the believers when the world is about to end ;)
thank god you didnt say Debian GNU/Linux ;-)
On Monday 29 October 2007 07:32, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 10/29/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
In free software, what is in it for the authors? For alarge segment, getting the credit, and the recognition that follows, is _it_. Eben Moglen commented on this to some extent in the recent Theo/BSD/LKML scrap about credits for driver code.
Yes, I understand that since I too would be pissed if someone doesn't give me credit for my work. But it's very strange that businesses are willing to give credit to projects like Linux, Eclipse, Firefox, OOo, etc. but always somehow keep GNU at an arms length.
I guess one of the key factors is that GNU has mostly contributed to the base system (shell, tools, compiler, etc.),
It is more complex than that. Business assumes that they have a right to exploit resources for those tokens called money. As businesses got smarter they could account for other things like publicity (since it eventually translates to money). GNU otoh has freedom as the sole agenda even if it means destroying the business's assumed right. While such an agenda is useful to everybody at some point in time, it's also a major hindrance to very many, particularly those who either refuse to see the social shift, or those in transition. It's very easy to picture the situation if one happens to be earning tokens from the media companies / M$ et all / Pharma companies etc. Freedom seems to be sooo contradictory to the aquivisitive (consumptive) nature of today's value system, even to those who pedal linux.
On 10/28/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
the entire mis understanding started when the comments came on the
glug instead of on the rediff page where the rediff guys are most likely to see. that is what my colligue alpesh did because his anger was on the press and not on me.
well i don't have anger against the press because they don't understand or are not aware of our motives and that's quiet expected. But lets admit it we went there to make sure that the efforts of free software projects like orca and to show the inclusive and humane nature of the free software projects to the local press BUT we have failed miserably to do both. Lets take the criticism constructively and learn from our mistakes it would be wrong on our part to blame the press it is not the first time in history the media has done this we should have known better.
Regards -Alpesh Gajbe
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 15:59 +0530, alpesh gajbe wrote:
On 10/28/07, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
the entire mis understanding started when the comments came on the
glug instead of on the rediff page where the rediff guys are most likely to see. that is what my colligue alpesh did because his anger was on the press and not on me.
well i don't have anger against the press because they don't understand or are not aware of our motives and that's quiet expected. But lets admit it we went there to make sure that the efforts of free software projects like orca and to show the inclusive and humane nature of the free software projects to the local press BUT we have failed miserably to do both. Lets take the criticism constructively and learn from our mistakes it would be wrong on our part to blame the press it is not the first time in history the media has done this we should have known better.
Bravo! Beautifully put. Messengers have a great responsibility. Finding excuses is not one of them. Getting the right message across is in our interest - not of the journalist.
-gabin
well i don't have anger against the press because they don't understand or are not aware of our motives and that's quiet expected. But lets admit it we went there to make sure that the efforts of free software projects like orca and to show the inclusive and humane nature of the free software projects to the local press BUT we have failed miserably to do both. Lets take the criticism constructively and learn from our mistakes it would be wrong on our part to blame the press it is not the first time in history the media has done this we should have known better.
Bravo! Beautifully put. Messengers have a great responsibility. Finding excuses is not one of them. Getting the right message across is in our interest - not of the journalist.
100% agreement there.
Well done indeed Alpesh! It takes a LOT of strength of character and an iron will to admit something like that and you Sir have both in good measure :-)
Dear Alpesh, My apologies to you personally if any of my comments caused you any duress and i wish you well in all your endeavours hence forth. People like you are in short supply and anyone would be privileged to have you on board their team :-)
Regards,
- vihan
G Karunakar wrote:
Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
All said and done, the article starts with ``A city-based visually impaired software professional has come out with an 'open source voice-enabled software' based on LINUX system, for the benefit of visually handicapped.'' which is fundamentally flawed since none among Marc Mulcahy, Willie Walker, Mike Pedersen, Rich Burridge, Joanmarie Diggs (the authors of Orca) are ``city based'' nor are they even Indians by any stretch of imagination. The whole article is misleading to say the least.
Regards, BG
On 10/30/07, Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@cleartrip.com wrote:
G Karunakar wrote:
Hi, check "Low cost software for visually impaired" http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/oct/23linux.htm
All said and done, the article starts with ``A city-based visually impaired software professional has come out with an 'open source voice-enabled software' based on LINUX system, for the benefit of visually handicapped.'' which is fundamentally flawed since none among Marc Mulcahy, Willie Walker, Mike Pedersen, Rich Burridge, Joanmarie Diggs (the authors of Orca) are ``city based'' nor are they even Indians by any stretch of imagination.
Finally someone who acknowledges GNU, Gnome and its project Oraca authors have not been credited!
/me bows to B.G
:-)
Regards,
- vihan
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Abhishek Daga -
alpesh gajbe -
Anurag -
Baishampayan Ghose -
Dinesh Shah -
G Karunakar -
Gabin Kattukaran -
Janani Gopalakrishnan -
jtd -
Kamaleshwar Morjal [कम लेश्व र मो रजाल] -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
krishnakant Mane -
Manoj Srivastava -
Mrugesh Karnik -
mukesh yadav -
Nagarjuna G. -
Philip Tellis -
Rony -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Vihan Pandey -
vivek khurana