Lawrence Lessig, the founder of Creative Commons organization and Professor of Law in Stanford University, stated, "Al Jazeera is teaching an important lesson about how free speech gets built and supported. By providing a free resource for the world, the network is encouraging wider debate, and a richer understanding".
http://cc.aljazeera.net/content/launch-press-release
On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 1:10:13 am Praveen A wrote:
Lawrence Lessig, the founder of Creative Commons organization and Professor of Law in Stanford University, stated, "Al Jazeera is teaching an important lesson about how free speech gets built and supported. By providing a free resource for the world, the network is encouraging wider debate, and a richer understanding".
and the relevance to this list?
2009/1/14 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
and the relevance to this list?
First time a major broadcaster is making available its works under a Free license enabling every one to copy, remix, and distribute.
- Praveen
On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 3:29:58 pm Praveen A wrote:
2009/1/14 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
and the relevance to this list?
First time a major broadcaster is making available its works under a Free license enabling every one to copy, remix, and distribute.
using linux? FOSS? Opensource?
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
using linux? FOSS? Opensource?
is Wikipedia FOSS just because mediawiki is GPL?
- Praveen
On Thursday 15 Jan 2009 6:01:52 pm Praveen A wrote:
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
using linux? FOSS? Opensource?
is Wikipedia FOSS just because mediawiki is GPL?
wikipedia is not FOSS
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
is Wikipedia FOSS just because mediawiki is GPL?
wikipedia is not FOSS
Wow! Now this list is not only discussing non-FOSS, but collecting donations for non-FOSS !!
On Friday 16 Jan 2009 12:17:59 am Praveen A wrote:
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
is Wikipedia FOSS just because mediawiki is GPL?
wikipedia is not FOSS
Wow! Now this list is not only discussing non-FOSS, but collecting donations for non-FOSS !!
FOSS stands for Free Open Source Software. Note the word 'software' - wikipedia is not software. It is content.
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
wikipedia is not software. It is content.
Since we are going to the minute of details, I would say Wikipedia is an encyclopedia or sum of all human knowledge as Jimmy Wales and Eben Moglen refers to it.
"If you want to describe a feeling of comfort and satisfaction, by all means say you are "content", but using it as a noun to describe written and other works of authorship is worth avoiding. That usage adopts a specific attitude towards those works: that they are an interchangeable commodity whose purpose is to fill a box and make money. In effect, it treats the works themselves with disrespect."
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Content
On Friday 16 Jan 2009 8:14:46 am Praveen A wrote:
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
wikipedia is not software. It is content.
Since we are going to the minute of details, I would say Wikipedia is an encyclopedia
wikipedia is not an encylopedia. It is not software. It is not FOSS. And do not quote scriptures to bolster your arguments - I am a non-believer.
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
wikipedia is not an encylopedia. It is not software. It is not FOSS. And do not quote scriptures to bolster your arguments - I am a non-believer.
Wow ! That was eye opening, that people would just donate lots of money to "content". I hope there are some believers in this group and they would avoid those words mentioned in the scripture.
Well at least now we know wikipedia is off topic, creative commons is off topic, wikipedia is not encyclopedia ... Would definitely help any one to refrain from posting off topic mails in future.
- Praveen
On Friday 16 Jan 2009 8:32:21 am Praveen A wrote:
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
wikipedia is not an encylopedia. It is not software. It is not FOSS. And do not quote scriptures to bolster your arguments - I am a non-believer.
I stand corrected - wikipedia *is* an enclyclopedia. I had misunderstood this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not
Wow ! That was eye opening, that people would just donate lots of money to "content". I hope there are some believers in this group and they would avoid those words mentioned in the scripture.
apparently people *are* donating money to creation and distribution of content. In fact, the biggest challenge before India today is to create and distribute content in all 35 languages.
Well at least now we know wikipedia is off topic, creative commons is off topic,
nobody said wikipedia is off topic or creative commons is offtopic - in suitable context both are on topic.
wikipedia is not encyclopedia
I withdraw that statement
As for quotation from scriptures, an example is this:
During a recent discussion on the Qt license, you vehemently argued for GPL rather than LGPL licensing for Qt and quoted some no-gpl page from the scriptures. When Nokia announced LGPL for Qt, you were jumping for joy and endorsing it - quite possibly there is another page in the scriptures extolling the virtues of LGPL over GPL. Heads you win, tails I lose!
2009/1/15 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
During a recent discussion on the Qt license, you vehemently argued for GPL rather than LGPL licensing for Qt and quoted some no-gpl page from the scriptures. When Nokia announced LGPL for Qt, you were jumping for joy and endorsing it - quite possibly there is another page in the scriptures extolling the virtues of LGPL over GPL. Heads you win, tails I lose!
This is not a game of winning and losing. We are discussing and learning from each other. There are reasons why I believe GPL is better than LGPL. But Qt moving to LGPL was an important event especially to this list. Each license is designed for a particular case. If your goal is to have your software used by many people you go for a more permissive license like LGPL, BSD or even to public domain - which is no license (because there is no copyright to begin with). But if your goal is to make sure every one gets the same freedoms and want to give Free Software developers an advantage over proprietary developers then you go for more protective licenses like GPL. What my preference to Qt is irrelevant here because, I don't own Qt or I don't decide what license Qt should have. I really wanted them to clarify the use of the word 'commercial' and clearly adding LGPL has clarified it undoubtedly and even went farther allowing proprietary software to be created with Qt. There is no fight here (at least for me), we all learn.
- Praveen
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
Lawrence Lessig, the founder of Creative Commons organization and Professor of Law in Stanford University, stated, "Al Jazeera is teaching an important lesson about how free speech gets built and supported. By providing a free resource for the world, the network is encouraging wider debate, and a richer understanding".
http://cc.aljazeera.net/content/launch-press-release
-- പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് <GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call! <DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak? (as seen on /.) Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Cross posting is not a nice idea either. I full appreciate your energy and vigor and earnestness in sharing this information, but I personally feel that cross posting is not the way to go about this. We have had personal discussions about this in the past too (your answer then was that you like all discussions to take place in the public eye), but repeated cross posting(s) (usually) with an apology (usually performed by yourself and/or a few other members of your Malayalam l10n inner circle) is quite well known to every one around here. Kindly refrain from this behavior at least on this list is my most humble request.
IIRC you have posted this same info ditto to FSF-Friends, FSUG-Bangalore, ILUG-Bombay and one of the Malayalam l1on group lists. I use gmail to access all these lists and it's personally very annoying for me to re-read your repeated posts on the same topic from all these above mentioned lists.
The only practical solution I can see is that you can post it to any one of the lists and request any one your friends to post it to one other list. That way at least it is not theoretically cross posting.
This list has seen enough of discussions on topics which is more of noice to signal, but I can't but comment on your action as it is personally very annoying to me.
ps: I fully understand the difference between cross posting and multi posting.
Regards,
2009/1/15 Vivek Varghese Cherian vivekcherian@gmail.com:
Cross posting is not a nice idea either. I full appreciate your energy and vigor and earnestness in sharing this information, but I
Vivek,
This is purely a personal attack on me. Clearly I did not cross post and you know that too.
This is also called a strawman argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute."
personally feel that cross posting is not the way to go about this. We have had personal discussions about this in the past too (your answer then was that you like all discussions to take place in the public eye), but repeated cross posting(s) (usually) with an apology (usually performed by yourself and/or a few other members of your Malayalam l10n inner circle) is quite well known to every one around here. Kindly refrain from this behavior at least on this list is my most humble request.
Clearly shows your intent. None of this is relevant to this list (except it clearly shows we have strong personal disagreements).
IIRC you have posted this same info ditto to FSF-Friends, FSUG-Bangalore, ILUG-Bombay and one of the Malayalam l1on group lists. I use gmail to access all these lists and it's personally very annoying for me to re-read your repeated posts on the same topic from all these above mentioned lists.
There is a legitimate concern whether this was on topic here. I understand the concern and responded to it. But this is totally out of place here. This list is not run to satisfy every one's personal tastes and/or lack of it. Tell me if it was not relevant to the list (like many others did), I am ready to listen. If you subscribe to multiple lists you may get same mails multiple times, there is no problem in that. If you read about cross posting and why it is bad, you would come to know none of those apply in this case.
I see Fred's mail from multiple mails too, that is how it is supposed to work.
The only practical solution I can see is that you can post it to any one of the lists and request any one your friends to post it to one other list. That way at least it is not theoretically cross posting.
And it is not practically cross posting either. The practical solution would be to keep your personal disagreement with me personal and not drag the list into it.
This list has seen enough of discussions on topics which is more of noice to signal, but I can't but comment on your action as it is personally very annoying to me.
I can't help it, you have to suffer it :-) As for the other legitimate concern, I'm considering options, including a new list.
ps: I fully understand the difference between cross posting and multi posting.
and yet you wanted to take a shot at me.
"Crossposting is the act of posting the same message to multiple forums, mailing lists, or newsgroups. This is distinct from multiposting, which involves posting multiple identical messages, each to a single forum, newsgroup, or topic area."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossposting
Is it enough that you disagree with me to accuse me of things I have not done?
Since you are using gmail creating a filter to delete my mails would be a possible solution.
- Praveen
Clearly shows your intent. None of this is relevant to this list (except it clearly shows we have strong personal disagreements).
My intent is to stop someone from cross posting the same matter over multiple lists. Nothing more nothing less. I cannot recall any 'strong personal disagreements' that still exists with you on this list for that matter.
IIRC you have posted this same info ditto to FSF-Friends, FSUG-Bangalore, ILUG-Bombay and one of the Malayalam l1on group lists. I use gmail to access all these lists and it's personally very annoying for me to re-read your repeated posts on the same topic from all these above mentioned lists.
I see Fred's mail from multiple mails too, that is how it is supposed to work.
I don't see Fred's mails to multiple lists I am subscribed to any longer. Please don't drag Fred into this discussion and attempt to divert attention. He has stopped cross posting after repeated objections from the community (notably Kenneth).
The only practical solution I can see is that you can post it to any one of the lists and request any one your friends to post it to one other list. That way at least it is not theoretically cross posting.
And it is not practically cross posting either. The practical solution would be to keep your personal disagreement with me personal and not drag the list into it.
If I have personal disagreements with you (I don't have any at this point time at least), I will discuss it at the appropriate forum as I have done in the past.
I can't help it, you have to suffer it :-)
Clearly shows your apathy to people who have difference of opinion on your behavior on this list but that is understandable given the present cross posting company that you have cultivated over a period of time.
ps: I fully understand the difference between cross posting and multi posting.
and yet you wanted to take a shot at me.
I wanted to tell you that I clearly know the difference between cleverly disguised habitual cross postings indulged by a group of people (including you on multiple lists) and a genuine multi post. In this case I am convinced that you were indeed cross posting. Kindly refrain from doing that again.
Regards,
2009/1/15 Vivek Varghese Cherian vivekcherian@gmail.com:
My intent is to stop someone from cross posting the same matter over multiple lists. Nothing more nothing less. I cannot recall any 'strong personal disagreements' that still exists with you on this list for that matter.
Get over with it Vivek. Stop lying, I did not cross post. Repeating lies won't make it true. I feared you still have disagreements with me over some past debates we had. Good to know you have good intentions. But good intentions often needs one to tell the truth. Can you tell me/list how you came to the conclusion that this was cross posting?
I see Fred's mail from multiple mails too, that is how it is supposed to work.
I don't see Fred's mails to multiple lists I am subscribed to any longer. Please don't drag Fred into this discussion and attempt to divert attention. He has stopped cross posting after repeated objections from the community (notably Kenneth).
OK. I agree with you Fred does not do it these days. mea culpa. But come back to the point why do you think I'm cross posting?
If I have personal disagreements with you (I don't have any at this point time at least), I will discuss it at the appropriate forum as I have done in the past.
Thats pretty relieving. Thanks buddy.
I can't help it, you have to suffer it :-)
Clearly shows your apathy to people who have difference of opinion on your behavior on this list but that is understandable given the present cross posting company that you have cultivated over a period of time.
As long as it is on topic to the lists I post it, there is nothing you can do to stop me from doing so. There was a legitimate concern about this particular post being off topic and I can understand that and I will respect it.
I wanted to tell you that I clearly know the difference between cleverly disguised habitual cross postings indulged by a group of people (including you on multiple lists) and a genuine multi post. In this case I am convinced that you were indeed cross posting. Kindly refrain from doing that again.
Why do you wanna bring other people into this? I occasionally do cross post when I feel the lists are close enough. But this was not the case. If you feel strongly about cross posting respond in appropriate forum where I cross post. Every one does not have to follow your convictions and beliefs. There is a well defined meaning for cross posting and multi posting. Even after claiming you know the difference between them you are accusing me of cross posting, which clearly I'm not doing.
- Praveen
On Friday 16 Jan 2009 8:26:31 am Praveen A wrote:
divert attention. He has stopped cross posting after repeated objections from the community (notably Kenneth).
OK. I agree with you Fred does not do it these days.
since my name has come up here, my objection to Fred's posts was not that he was crossposting - he was spamming. And further he was not participating in any list discussion as a member. He parked his battleship offshore and was indiscriminately raining missiles on all the lists in the country.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2009/1/15 Vivek Varghese Cherian vivekcherian@gmail.com:
My intent is to stop someone from cross posting the same matter over multiple lists. Nothing more nothing less. I cannot recall any 'strong personal disagreements' that still exists with you on this list for that matter.
Get over with it Vivek. Stop lying, I did not cross post. Repeating lies won't make it true.
I don't need to lie. I found it annoying to read the same mail over multiple lists( 5 lists).
Regarding the cross posting statement I made, I won't be able to prove it conclusively as you are using gmail and often the message headers via gmail make it impossible to distinguish if it is a cross or multipost.
I told you what I personally felt after reading the same post over 5 lists. If you did not cross post it's good for you.
Regards,
2009/1/16 Vivek Varghese Cherian vivekcherian@gmail.com:
Regarding the cross posting statement I made, I won't be able to prove it conclusively as you are using gmail and often the message headers via gmail make it impossible to distinguish if it is a cross or multipost.
If you see more list addresses in 'to' or 'cc', its is a cross post (It is just one click 'show details'). If you see 5 mails with the same subject from me, just mark read, archive or delete. If you are using gmail web front end, it is very easy. You don't have to waste band width.
And just for your knowledge. The __solution__ to your bandwidth problem is __cross posting__. It is like you want me to cross post so that you can save bandwidth and you still accuse me of cross posting !!
- Praveen
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Kenneth Gonsalves -
Praveen A -
Vivek Varghese Cherian