[resending since the mail did not make it to the list, there are problems with my postfix config..]
abhas> It would be nice if all of us could post a small introduction about abhas> ourselves here - that will ensure that we can have more meaningful abhas> discussion! And can depend on each others' respective strengths and abhas> resources to grow Free Software usage around here.
I am Ramakrishnan. I write non-free software for a living, specifically I do digital signal processing software which goes into VoIP gateways and IP Phones. I had been Free Software user and advocate since 1996. I am also a volunteer for the FSF (I help maintain the gnu.org webpages) and for the Debian Project. I am single till June 24th (I am getting married on 25th June). I am also interested in Amateur Radio (waiting and waiting for the license to come from Govt of India).
Apart from technical activities, I am also interested in carnatic music. I studied carnatic music for about 14 years and was a B-grade artist at All India Radio, Trichur (kerala) back when I was a student. I don't have time for music now a days, but hope to spend more time on music than on free software in the coming days.
Though this was meant to be an intro, I am going to talk about something not fully unrelated...
I am not very active in any mailing lists related to Free Software now, partly because of lack of time and partly because I am sad at the state of affairs with the way things are done, particularly the way FSF-India conducts itself. The webpage is sloppy and so is its conduct. Everything seem to be done in secrecy and afew individuals think, Free Software is a god given gift only to them. I have pointed out many issues with FSF in the past, and all have fallen on deaf ears, as is the case with anything done in India. The attempts to fix webpages (try browsing the archives of fsf-friends) have been met with counter questions instead, asking me to fix it. Isn't it not fair to file bug reports without patches? Anyway, it is clear that the gang in trivandrum and elsewhere are trying to add one more line in their resume rather than work for the good of free software. Many people whom I know are "officially" part of FSF-India talk "open source" and "linux" elsewhere. I do not want to point fingures at anyone though... FSF-India do not even publish a list of office bearers on their website (FSF boston has published it at member.fsf.org, you will see even more info there in the coming days), even after being pestered many times.
I am an associate member (membership #255) since Dec 2002 and have also helped atleast 5 people become associate members and am proud of it, because FSF got some money to defend the freedom of the users. FSF is going to be very relevant in the coming days, there is no doubt. If any of you can afford to shell out $10 a month (~ Rs.500), please become an associate member. One of the directors of the FSF-India promised us last year (or in 2003?) that an indian version of associate membership will be launched, but as usual, we didn't hear from him again.
I am going to be busy for the next 4-5 weeks, but I will try my best to attend the meeting, if it is going to be held this weekend.
best regards
Dear Ramki,
Unlike FSF in Boston, which is now a standing organisation, FSF India is not (not even a single full time staff, and even the core people are spread across the country). Resources are very small. And lot of headache as a legal entity. It is easy to say fix this and that, but a lot of work has to be done to get things fixed. I know you are complaining because of your interest in us not hate.
Just to understand the difficulties here are some work,
Some time back RMS visited India and had discussion with our president. Fine, how many know the difficulty we faced in arranging his travel ? We raised good amount of funds to pay his travel in India and to India. Some good friends like Abhas helped and at the last minute we arranged everything.
I had to spend long time in from of government organisations like Registrar of companies, IT office etc its really pain. It is not at all fun like coding. Last month, for several days i was in IT office seeing one person to get the papers for IT exemption to FSF India. Most of these work go in the background and wont be seen or known by others.
Also there were very much visible efforts like WSF media centre. It wasnt a simple job.
Regarding the web, now we have an efficient and almost full time volunteer to work on it. He had done lot of work already. Many of your suggestions including the Who is Who is complete. Software for volunteer registration etc ready now (he is testing i think).
We will be improving the operation, but need time and resources.
regards, arun.
Arun,
Yes, I know about these difficulties, and fully understand. It's just that I am frustrated with afew individuals at the helm of fsf-india. If these people change, probably everything will change.
Free Software Movement is one of the most noble movements ever in humanity, so it is very important we do something about it. We need representations in Govt committees etc (already "Open Source" guys who are headquartered in Bangalore are in Govt committees). We also need ways to handle online donations. If there were a way to donate monthly as in fsf-boston, I would not have given that precious $10/month (now $20/month from June '04 onwards)I give to them and instead given that to FSF India. When I hear people talking how the fsf-india funds were spent (like flight charges for people etc) I do not feel like contributing to FSF-India as that money I donate is earned after working very long and hard hours at my work place.
I hope things will change for good in the time to come. But for that a lot of current practices and people have to change.
Ramakrishnan
Dear Ramki,
Unlike FSF in Boston, which is now a standing organisation, FSF India is not (not even a single full time staff, and even the core people are spread across the country). Resources are very small. And lot of headache as a legal entity. It is easy to say fix this and that, but a lot of work has to be done to get things fixed. I know you are complaining because of your interest in us not hate.
Just to understand the difficulties here are some work,
Some time back RMS visited India and had discussion with our president. Fine, how many know the difficulty we faced in arranging his travel ? We raised good amount of funds to pay his travel in India and to India. Some good friends like Abhas helped and at the last minute we arranged everything.
I had to spend long time in from of government organisations like Registrar of companies, IT office etc its really pain. It is not at all fun like coding. Last month, for several days i was in IT office seeing one person to get the papers for IT exemption to FSF India. Most of these work go in the background and wont be seen or known by others.
Also there were very much visible efforts like WSF media centre. It wasnt a simple job.
Regarding the web, now we have an efficient and almost full time volunteer to work on it. He had done lot of work already. Many of your suggestions including the Who is Who is complete. Software for volunteer registration etc ready now (he is testing i think).
We will be improving the operation, but need time and resources.
regards, arun.
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Hi Ramki,
Yes, I know about these difficulties, and fully understand. It's just that I am frustrated with a few individuals at the helm of fsf-india. If these people change, probably everything will change.
Well, FSF India is an organisation lead by few individuals. It has collective responsibility. Changing a few person is not a solution. I would request that if you have any concern with any one in the board of directors pls inform the board abt the same. It can be discussed there and actions can be taken up. Board does include RMS. It is not a good idea to publicly comment like this. It can only create confusion and damage the movement. So please try to be specific.
Free Software Movement is one of the most noble movements ever in humanity, so it is very important we do something about it. We need representations in Govt committees etc (already "Open Source" guys who are headquartered in Bangalore are in Govt committees).
Yes, and it is not an easy task to get into govt. People in 'Open Source' are good at selling themselves. Many of them have personal gains to come from what they are doing. Unfortunately that is not the case in 'free software'. Here all of us do what we do just because we have some moral force driving us to do what we do.
Any way, we are not standing still. We have identified some channels through which we can try to influence the central govt. Abhas is working on a document to be given to govt officials, Arky is working on a newsletter with activities till date, Ramanraj and Sasikumar made a document on public standers in research institutions. We have submitted the document they made to Kerala State Council for Science Technology and Environment(Headed by Dr Valyathan). We are planning to give it to CSIR also. We will be requesting all the MPs from Kerala to fund IT@School projects based on free software alone. And i am sure most of them will agree.
We also need ways to handle online donations. If there were a way to donate monthly as in fsf-boston, I would not have given that precious $10/month (now $20/month from June '04 onwards)I give to them and instead given that to FSF India. When I hear people talking how the fsf-india funds were spent (like flight charges for people etc) I do not feel like contributing to FSF-India as that money I donate is earned after working very long and hard hours at my work place.
FSF India till date didnt make any major public fund raising campaign. On case by case we raised funds from our friends (Eg, early this year i gave a SOS call to Abhas and another friend and both of them made a substantial contribution). I am sure they are supporting because of the trust that funds wont be misused.
I've noticed that one person is going around and telling lies abt FSF India. I request not to echo his words till you verify the facts. Action will be taken against him.
regards, Arun.
|| On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:50:42 +0530 || Arun M arun@gnu.org.in wrote:
arun> Well, FSF India is an organisation lead by few individuals. It has arun> collective responsibility. Changing a few person is not a solution. I
My own experience and several other experiences have shown that this is not true. Changing individuals *can* and *will* change the way organisation functions, otherwise, there must be something inherently wrong.
arun> would request that if you have any concern with any one in the board of arun> directors pls inform the board abt the same. It can be discussed there arun> and actions can be taken up. Board does include RMS. It is not a good arun> idea to publicly comment like this. It can only create confusion and arun> damage the movement. So please try to be specific.
The movement was already damaged in July 2001, when the FSF-India was started and subsequent dramatic scenes enacted by certain people. Read archives for more info.
arun> I've noticed that one person is going around and telling lies abt FSF arun> India. I request not to echo his words till you verify the facts. Action arun> will be taken against him.
Not one, several people are telling lies, not just about FSF India, but about everything and taking advantage of the situation. I can give you a long list of names very familiar to you. I have hard evidence that they are non-cooperative and have no idea about free software ethics. How about that?
Hi,
I dont have any comments on this. If you have any specific issue bring it up in the right forum and it can be considered. It is point less to argue on vague issue.
Regarding your comments on damage to the movement, it is denial of the facts. If you come to Kerala you can see that the issue of free software is in public agenda. FSF India has played an important role in that. I am sure we have created a situation where FSF India will be consulted on important decision makings in the IT front in Govt. We are now trying to create such a situation in Karnataka. It is not simple task. Rather than blaming and talking, lets do real work. To do is far more difficult than to say how to do. Lets not kill the child before birth.
regards, arun.
I would suggest FSUG Blore to work inclusively. Even with people who differ with us and in 'Open Source' camp. Same time keep the difference clear and open. That way we will achieve a lot more what we would have done alone. Or we will fight in between and nothing will come out. We must the pragmatic idealist.
Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan wrote:
The movement was already damaged in July 2001, when the FSF-India was started and subsequent dramatic scenes enacted by certain people. Read archives for more info.
I'm not sure the old archives are any more there, since the lists changed location and names. I don't have much of a clue what happened with the organisation as such. But that's not what I want to talk about.
I was a student during the time in question, helping to organise the talk RMS would give at my college. I was subscribed to the then FSF India mailinglist from the very begining, had read up a lot of material on software freedom from the Internet, and was very much impressed and excited about the whole thing. Hey, now that the FSF is in India, a sea change is going to come! There was talks about helping student projects, getting students to develop Free Software, all of which interested me.
But the revoloution never happened. What happened instead was many kinds of ugly mudslinging and fighting over non-issues, in the mailing list. I thought it to be the initial identity crisis over open source and Linux. But gradually I became cynical of the whole FSF India idea and unsubscribed from the FSF India list. I had had enough. Bleh, FSF India, whats that?
Personally I don't have a problem with accepting people that talk about Open Source and Linux and world domination, or whatever. People have their opinions, and as long as people are thinking, there are going to be differences in opinions. But the religious obsession with forcing people to conform rather than think and the moral high handedness had been disgusting.
With all respect to people that gets the real work done, I must say that the kind of behaviour that was to be found in FSF India lists is damaging to the philosophy and movement as a whole. (I must also say that the people that gets the real work done had been largely silent or busy with their work. Or that was my impression, correct or incorrect.)
I have seen talented, thinking people that had the potential of making a non-trivial contributions to the community moving away in disgust, after their short interactions with the kind of people I'd been talking about. Just thinking of the loss incurred makes me cringe.
What I'd been put down is not an objective and factual analysis of what happened or what should be done. These are merely impressions I'd as an observer of the whole phenomenon. If it helps, good. If it helps to get me a flame or two, ugh :)
Sajith.
Sajith T S (that's myself) wrote:
But the revoloution never happened. What happened instead was many kinds of ugly mudslinging and fighting over non-issues, in the mailing list. I thought it to be the initial identity crisis over open source and Linux. But gradually I became cynical of the whole FSF India idea and unsubscribed from the FSF India list. I had had enough. Bleh, FSF India, whats that?
Coming back to my better senses, it looks like I went overboard... it didn't have to be this unpleaseant. I understand that a volunteer-driven non-profit organisation like FSF India could always do with better resources and volunteering, not a rant like this.
I apologize. If anything, it was out of love and respect for the ideals FSF stand for and the unreasonable guy who insisted that software should be free for the better of society and communities could be made out of it, while coding away and sleeping under his MIT office desk. It should be future generations that judge them.
Sajith.
Sajith T S wrote: ,---- | Coming back to my better senses, it looks like I went overboard... it | didn't have to be this unpleaseant. I understand that a | volunteer-driven non-profit organisation like FSF India could always | do with better resources and volunteering, not a rant like this. `----
Its okay Sajith :) It happens. Had this topic come up a year ago, I would have reacted in the same way.
We can still make a small change in our own way. At this point I would like to share a few "lessons" that I learnt from the Demo@Schools project:
1. If you want to make a change (be it about Free Software Education or even cleaning up your own room) it has to have an equal amount of contribution from all the people involved. When a few people put in too much energy, those others who cannot put such an enthu *might* get bogged down and they will eventually stop contributing whatever energy thast they could afford.
2. If a project starts shooting up at a very high angle at the very beginning its almost always going to follow the law of gravity -- it will become a "falling knife" (pardon me for my stock market lingua ;) )
cheers,
-Suraj
Hi Friends,
--- Suraj suraj@symonds.net wrote:
Its okay Sajith :) It happens. Had this topic come up a year ago, I would have reacted in the same way.
We can still make a small change in our own way. At this point I would like to share a few "lessons" that I learnt from the Demo@Schools project:
It was indeed your "lessons" that helped FSUG-blr till now. Abhas and me had met suraj on a sunday as he was always bunking Gnu(s) Grazing.
Going too fast and aiming to high will get faster to nadir.(that's something I learnt)
- If you want to make a change (be it about Free
Software Education or even cleaning up your own room) it has to have an equal amount of contribution from all the people involved.
The idea behind having a active mailing-list to get a platform where in the ideas local to FSUG-blr could be disscused.
We hope that over the time, we can get more contribution but we have wait now.
- If a project starts shooting up at a very high
angle at the very beginning its almost always
going > to follow the law of gravity --
And there is one more variable plays a vital role here,that is "time". Putting our(Arun,Abhas and gang) energy behind building FSUG-blr I had to taken into account that this work may take years.
I think that July 21'st event would be great success, now that we have some great chap'a around here.Wish Ramanraj was in bangalore,though I'll try to get him shipped here for the event.
will become a "falling knife" (pardon me for my stock market lingua ;) )
A pharse like 'falling like a hot potato' is more apt ;D, never heard of 'falling knife' and don't fancy standing behind it when it does.
cheers
--arky
PS: Either you teach me tamil or change you sig qoute to a lanugage I understand.They are interesting but its greek to me.
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--- Suraj suraj@symonds.net wrote:
I would like to share a few "lessons" that I learnt from the Demo@Schools project ... to make a change ... [through] Free Software Education:
`Computer Science' period starts from UKG, in most [private] schools, with a collection of ~ Rs. 1200/- per annum towards this `special' subject. Most schools have a `Computer Lab' and the children are taken there during Computer Science Period, about once a week. At UKG, the only program introduced is `Paint' - and children can get to learn about using the mouse, keyboard and simple tools. No text books are issued. There is a `Computer Miss/Master' who teaches these, and they take a few prints of paintings and send it back as feedback to parents as proof that their kid is progressing in `Computer Science'. Your kid will proudly say, `I did this on a computer!'. The schools have some kind of arrangement with pvt cos like NIIT or APTECH to take care of the course.
At I Std, a Text Book is issued for `Computer Science'. The chapters are: 1. Introduction 2. Hello Computers 3. Parts of a Computer 4. Uses of Computer 5. Computers at Work 6. Type with Notepad [ms] 7. Let's Paint [with ms] Chapters 1 to 5 are vendor neutral, but with chapter 6, liberal screen shots introduce ms to kids. From now on, CS is like any other subject - Q&A and Tests based on the Text Book become part of the curriculum.
Then, the pattern repeats at each higher class.
At +1, CS gets branched into C Programming, etc. I have been using the C Programming Text Book [Rs. 30/-] as a reference for the past two years, and I should say it is one of the best books I have read on CS, prepared by the Sub-Committe of IT Task Force of the Govt. Of TN. In the Preface Dr. M. Anandakrishnan, tells the students:
"In fact a large percentage of time given to solve a problem using a computer should be spent without touching the computer! Only by a disciplined approach, one can develop high quality software that is efficient and without errors ... [Programming] must be learnt by solving various problems. Problem solving is a skill that gets reinforced by rigorous programming."
The students are advised to read BWK & DMR's "The C Programming Language" [Rs. 125/-] Many topics are lucidly explained and the portions relating to scanf are not easily found elsewhere. The book is mostly vendor neutral with an exception made to UNIX and a screen shot of `Turbo C'. Possibly, FSF could request the text book committee to introduce GCC & GDB to the students.
Every text book can have some of the popular writings of RMS which could highlight the feelings of love, sharing and compassion, which our movement truly stands for, more than anything else. Though code is made up of cold logic, RMS has infused love and life into it with the philosophy of sharing. These give gentleness and warmth to free software and writings in same spirit will directly touch the hearts of people and spread the movement far, wide and deep.
HTH to frame an approach to introducing free software to children, and may be through them, to parents :)
Regards, Ramanraj.
Ramanraj K wrote: ,---- | taken there during Computer Science Period, about once a week. At | UKG, the only program introduced is `Paint' - and children can get to | learn about using the mouse, keyboard and simple tools. No text books | are `----
[snip]
,---- | At I Std, a Text Book is issued for `Computer Science'. The chapters | are: 1. Introduction 2. Hello Computers 3. Parts of a Computer 4. Uses | of Computer 5. Computers at Work 6. Type with Notepad [ms] 7. Let's `----
[snip]
True, as I might have mentioned in one of my earlier mails, there is no mandatory "computer science" subject for classes upto 10th. The only reason why all schools make it mandatory is to keep abreast of the competition -- when all others offer a CS subject, a given school has no other option. So they usually ask an NIIT or an APTECH to help them.
However the "computer miss/master" is usually someone without much enthusiasm for teaching computing the way, say, someone of our *wavelength* would want to. We (Demo@Schools) tried convincing a school (where we were regularly teaching the students some Free Software (bash, fundamentals of "UNIX", python)) to let us teach the teachers. But somehow they took it too personally and never liked the idea of a "teacher" learning from someone. :(
,---- | HTH to frame an approach to introducing free software to children, and | may be through them, to parents :) `----
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore schools (in terms of syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none of my colleagues have any school-related funda.
cheers,
-Suraj
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 09:21, Suraj Kumar wrote:
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore schools (in terms of syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none of my colleagues have any school-related funda.
I know of one school (Merry Land School, near Ulsoor) which is very friendly in terms of Free Software usage. You can visit: www.merryland.org.
Something of interest is: http://www.merryland.org/innovations.htm
I met with their main technical person, Arun, since they required some Debian Gnu/Linux support from us.
-abhas.
--- Abhas Abhinav abhas@deeproot.co.in wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 09:21, Suraj Kumar wrote:
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore
schools (in terms of
syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none
of my colleagues have
any school-related funda.
I know of one school (Merry Land School, near Ulsoor) which is very friendly in terms of Free Software usage. You can visit: www.merryland.org.
Something of interest is: http://www.merryland.org/innovations.htm
I met with their main technical person, Arun, since they required some
Now, lets discuss what we can do for them in the next Gnu(s) Grazing.
They have some activity clubs (my my for quake gaming) and Web design.So, let's say one us goes there on a weekend and explains the features of Bluefish or something.
cheers
--arky PS: I belive creating a LAN gaming jam is better for the kids ;o)
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Suraj Kumar wrote: .... True ... "computer science" subject for classes ...
I thought I should point to some of the nitty gritty involved in taking free software to schools, from the perspective of the school, familiar to me as a `parent'. Key focus should be on _TextBooks_ because that is the main mode of input at schools.
The most important objective of computer science education in schools ought to be to make every child a proficient and intelligent user of computer programs. Free Software Distros, School Level GLUGs, running a school from a network, will all help.
We can also request developers to write the most elementary introductory tutorial keeping in mind that it will be used by high school students. [The best example I can cite is that of the documentation that comes with PostgreSQL ]
However the "computer miss/master" is usually someone without much enthusiasm for teaching computing the way, say, someone of our *wavelength* would want to. We (Demo@Schools) tried convincing a school (where we were regularly teaching the students some Free Software (bash, fundamentals of "UNIX", python)) to let us teach the teachers. But somehow they took it too personally and never liked the idea of a "teacher" learning from someone. :(
Most teachers take their job seriously and may not be able to visualise anything remotely resembling free software. The Management and teachers think in concrete terms of text books, class work, home work, tests and marks, and if a bare outline of the curriculum is laid bare, then, I think most schools and teachers would be more than happy to teach the students not only free software but the high value of sharing in life that can be easily learnt at school level.
,---- | HTH to frame an approach to introducing free software to children, and | may be through them, to parents :) `----
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore schools (in terms of syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none of my colleagues have any school-related funda.
And, what is the scenario everywhere else too [both in and out of India]? Suraj, if you remember you pointed a link to some chemistry projects, and I was surprised to see the level of interest of several govts in Europe over using free software in school projects. Some of the School Boards in Europe might have thought of these things and may have ready to use information or distros. [Mostly not in English :(
Cheers! Ramanraj.
Ramanraj K wrote: ,---- | The most important objective of computer science education in schools | ought to be to make every child a proficient and intelligent user of | computer programs. Free Software Distros, School Level GLUGs, running | a school from a network, will all help. `----
Very true. For "Free Software Distros" (aimed at schools) there are plenty already out there. For instance look at the SkoleLinux project[1]
,---- | We can also request developers to write the most elementary | introductory tutorial keeping in mind that it will be used by high | school students. [The best example I can cite is that of the | documentation that comes with PostgreSQL ] `----
One practical problem we faced in Demo@Schools was the lack of some sort of a thing (which I haven't yet understood completely) which results in documents/tutorials getting half way through.
,---- | Most teachers take their job seriously and may not be able to | visualise anything remotely resembling free software. The Management | and teachers think in concrete terms of text books, class work, home | work, tests and marks, and if a bare outline of the curriculum is laid | bare, then, I think most schools and teachers would be more than happy | to teach the students not only free software but the high value of | sharing in life that can be easily learnt at school level. `----
Completely Agree. From what I experienced, Its a chicken and egg problem -- Without convincing them (the school) how well the students can learn free software they wont let you present a valuable syllabus to follow and without following a proper syllabus, practicals, tests and "marks" the school wont know how to grade / judge the students. For all we did in demo@schools was to teach, teach and teach in weekends. Infact after a point we even convinced ourselves that "its okay if the students are interested by themselves. they will start hacking all by themselves after a point.". But that wont happen until they get a good grip on things... and THAT didn't happen... :(
,---- | and I was surprised to see the level of interest of several govts in | Europe over using free software in school projects. Some of the | School `----
Brazil is going very good with this, more than europe.
-Suraj
[1] http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/index_html
Suraj wrote:
,---- | We can also request developers to write the most elementary | introductory tutorial keeping in mind that it will be used by high | school students. [The best example I can cite is that of the | documentation that comes with PostgreSQL ] `----
One practical problem we faced in Demo@Schools was the lack of some sort of a thing (which I haven't yet understood completely) which results in documents/tutorials getting half way through.
Then, centralised efforts may be needed. Assigning the task to the teachers themselves is the best thing to do, because they know best what the students will understand and what they wont' which will be supplemented with their own notes.
,---- | Most teachers take their job seriously and may not be able to | visualise anything remotely resembling free software. The Management | and teachers think in concrete terms of text books, class work, home | work, tests and marks, and if a bare outline of the curriculum is laid | bare, then, I think most schools and teachers would be more than happy | to teach the students not only free software but the high value of | sharing in life that can be easily learnt at school level. `----
Completely Agree. From what I experienced, Its a chicken and egg problem -- Without convincing them (the school) how well the students can learn free software they wont let you present a valuable syllabus to follow and without following a proper syllabus, practicals, tests and "marks" the school wont know how to grade / judge the students. For all we did in demo@schools was to teach, teach and teach in weekends. Infact after a point we even convinced ourselves that "its okay if the students are interested by themselves. they will start hacking all by themselves after a point.". But that wont happen until they get a good grip on things... and THAT didn't happen... :(
It will happen only when the right text books get written and are available. Certain concepts like pipes and permissions could be taught from an early stage, and will help the students to think the right way from the start, regardless of `marks'. Merely pointing to resources already available should help. If no text books are available then, a good book available in the market should be made available for reference. Using primary documentation that comes with the program or those written by the authors themselves are the very best. They are often less profound than their commentators.
Regards, Ramanraj.
Ramanraj K wrote: ,---- | Then, centralised efforts may be needed. Assigning the task to the | teachers themselves is the best thing to do, because they know best | what the students will understand and what they wont' which will be | supplemented with their own notes. `----
Same Chicken and Egg! They teachers wont sit for a training session! and besides, since Demo@Schools was "extra-feeding", the teachers also had other stuff to teach the students (like Star Office, Windows, etc.,.). Infact, at one point we started considering it "success" to keep the teachers in the class while we were teaching. Somehow they would always slip away. ;/
,---- | It will happen only when the right text books get written and are | available. Certain concepts like pipes and permissions could be | taught from an early stage, and will help the students to think the | right way from the start, regardless of `marks'. Merely pointing to | resources already available should help. If no text books are | available then, a good book available in the market should be made | available for reference. Using primary documentation that comes with | the program or those written by the authors themselves are the very | best. They are often less profound than their commentators. `----
True. And right text books need a good amount of volunteers with enough fourth dimension at their disposal. With Demo@Schools, that was the main problem. Bad news, only two books got completed. Good news, we (fsugb) need not write everything from scratch ;)
Completed stuff:
1. M K Saravanan completed a "cheat sheat" kinda thing for TCP/IP, networking related stuff).
2. After a while, a person named "John Buchanen" (spelling might be wrong) had contributed his book named "Programming Ground Up" (neatly docbookized). It is very well written and is aimed at teaching Assembly Language for the newbie.
Incomplete Stuff:
1. I started off with a docbooked thing called "introduction to computers" (with heavy GNU fanaticism propaganda and if I read it again, it all sounds like some hitler talking about jews -- on how bad it is to not share software, how evil the term "linux" is and such... you know, the typical GNU fanaticism).
2. Arun was writing "Introduction to Desktops". It probably has a few paragraphs in there, so $volunteer can take up from there :)
cheers,
-Suraj
Suraj Kumar wrote:
Ramanraj K wrote: ,---- | Then, centralised efforts may be needed. Assigning the task to the | teachers themselves is the best thing to do, because they know best | what the students will understand and what they wont' which will be | supplemented with their own notes. `----
Same Chicken and Egg!
Evidence is now accumulating to show that the eggs came first :) We have for long used expressions like `germ of an idea' or `seed of an idea'. We only need to pack the right things into the seeds, plant them in schools, watch them being cared for and soon they can take roots in schools and once our seeds germinates and grows into nice tall mature trees, it will take feed back from its environment and produce improved evolved seeds that could be used the next academic year. Looks like the chickens hatch from eggs, but a chicken did not lay the first egg. [Clue: all life evolved from bacteria]
True. And right text books need a good amount of volunteers with enough fourth dimension at their disposal. With Demo@Schools, that was the main problem. Bad news, only two books got completed. Good news, we (fsugb) need not write everything from scratch ;)
Completed stuff:
- M K Saravanan completed a "cheat sheat" kinda thing for TCP/IP,
networking related stuff).
- After a while, a person named "John Buchanen" (spelling might be
wrong) had contributed his book named "Programming Ground Up" (neatly docbookized). It is very well written and is aimed at teaching Assembly Language for the newbie.
My goodness! Those are for Demo@Colleges.
I would say, the syllabus should be oriented towards making children skilled _users_ of existing programs, which a firm grounding in basic computing concepts. They should know atleast one scripting language: sh, perl or php. Without reinventing the wheel, school patterns devised in Brazil or Europe could be studied and followed here.
Incomplete Stuff:
- I started off with a docbooked thing called "introduction to
computers" (with heavy GNU fanaticism propaganda and if I read it again, it all sounds like some hitler talking about jews -- on how bad it is to not share software, how evil the term "linux" is and such... you know, the typical GNU fanaticism).
Any kind of advocacy could be called fanaticism. But generally, pushing is useless, and instead we should work on pulls that can attract by its own weight. Originally I was introduced to `Open Source Linux' at the Bangalore IT.Com fair, but soon the powerful pull from the GPL led me to these lists. I have not known GNU fanaticism, and nobody pushed me into these lists. Since we value freedom more than anything else, we can ask others to stay vigilant too.
- Arun was writing "Introduction to Desktops". It probably has a few
paragraphs in there, so $volunteer can take up from there :)
Probably all these could get transferred to a wiki ?
Regards, Ramanraj.
[keeping my reply short because I've got work to do]
Ramanraj K wrote: ,---- | evolved seeds that could be used the next academic year. Looks like | the chickens hatch from eggs, but a chicken did not lay the first egg. `----
Whatever... Demo@Schools had too little people and whatever efforts people invested reached out to a very small mass.
,---- | > teaching Assembly Language for the newbie. | > | My goodness! Those are for Demo@Colleges. `----
True. We also demoed at some colleges - Venkateswara Engg., Madras Christian College, MIT (no formal demo, but I used to teach for a pretty long time during weekends).
,---- | own weight. Originally I was introduced to `Open Source Linux' at the | Bangalore IT.Com fair, but soon the powerful pull from the GPL led me | to these lists. I have not known GNU fanaticism, and nobody pushed me | into these lists. Since we value freedom more than anything else, we | can ask others to stay vigilant too. `----
Whatever... I'm too tired with GNU advocacy at this point. I'm all for doing useful work. Not mere flaming / advising / preaching / etc.,.
,---- | Probably all these could get transferred to a wiki ? `----
Sure, Will do this weekend. The books are out there in the CVS[1]. Can I upload it to some sort of an FTP or CVS on fsug-bangalore? or can we simply go ahead and use Demo@Schools' CVS?
cheers,
-Suraj
[1] http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/demo-schools/demo-schools/
PS: Can we talk something useful, please? and put Demo@Schools to sleep?
Suraj wrote: ,---- | I upload it to some sort of an FTP or CVS on fsug-bangalore? or can we `----
s/fsug-bangalore/fsug-bangalore.deeproot.*/
-Suraj
Suraj wrote:
Whatever... Demo@Schools had too little people and whatever efforts people invested reached out to a very small mass.
If initial dev efforts are centralised it could pool the valuable minimum resources available.
I'm all for doing useful work.
Suraj, I'll keep this in mind. Its rare to hear such things in mailing lists :)
Cheers! Ramanraj.
All, Iam Krishna. am new to this group. I work for Texas Instruments India at Bangalore. Iam trying to understand the focus of this group. Can anyone please summarise it for me?
Regards, Krishna
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:35:45 +0530, Ramanraj K ramanraj@md4.vsnl.net.in wrote:
Suraj wrote:
Whatever... Demo@Schools had too little people and whatever efforts people invested reached out to a very small mass.
If initial dev efforts are centralised it could pool the valuable minimum resources available.
I'm all for doing useful work.
Suraj, I'll keep this in mind. Its rare to hear such things in mailing lists :)
Cheers! Ramanraj.
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Krishnakumar G wrote:
Iam Krishna. am new to this group. I work for Texas InstrumentsIndia at Bangalore. Iam trying to understand the focus of this group. Can anyone please summarise it for me?
Welcome Krishna. I'm Sajith, working for Andale (smallish company in Prestige Bluechip Software Park, Oppsite Christ college.) I'd been with this group since its inception two months back, we've had 2.3 meetings so far, which were essentially informal get-togethers :)
Well, we are basically Free Software fans and supporters of the GNU project, which I hope ideas you are familiar with. So far, the general consensus in the group is to go with an activist style of modus operandi, rather than the regular LUG style operations. (People, correct me if/wherever I'm wrong.)
Which means, we're more interested in software as a means of making a difference in society. We will socialise, get like-minded people in Bangalore and vicinity to know each other, help the community grow, interact with NGOs and educational institutions and help them to use Free Software etc. At least that's what we are talking about.
At the moment, we're planning to celebrate Software Freedom Day (July 21st) in Bangalore. If you've ideas or suggestions, post it here or in the wiki:
http://fsug-bangalore.deeproot.org.in/?Plans_And_Ideas
I think much of the focus depends on you and me - the group members will decide what the focus should be. Any suggestions?
Sajith.
Thanks Sajith. So if i understood right, 1) Create awareness for free software 2) Get schools /colleges/instituions to use free software
Is there any plan to develop some new software which can be helpful in achieving the two points above?
Cheers, Krishna
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:32:50 +0530, Sajith T S sajithts@softhome.net wrote:
Krishnakumar G wrote:
Iam Krishna. am new to this group. I work for Texas InstrumentsIndia at Bangalore. Iam trying to understand the focus of this group. Can anyone please summarise it for me?
Welcome Krishna. I'm Sajith, working for Andale (smallish company in Prestige Bluechip Software Park, Oppsite Christ college.) I'd been with this group since its inception two months back, we've had 2.3 meetings so far, which were essentially informal get-togethers :)
Well, we are basically Free Software fans and supporters of the GNU project, which I hope ideas you are familiar with. So far, the general consensus in the group is to go with an activist style of modus operandi, rather than the regular LUG style operations. (People, correct me if/wherever I'm wrong.)
Which means, we're more interested in software as a means of making a difference in society. We will socialise, get like-minded people in Bangalore and vicinity to know each other, help the community grow, interact with NGOs and educational institutions and help them to use Free Software etc. At least that's what we are talking about.
At the moment, we're planning to celebrate Software Freedom Day (July 21st) in Bangalore. If you've ideas or suggestions, post it here or in the wiki:
http://fsug-bangalore.deeproot.org.in/?Plans_And_Ideas
I think much of the focus depends on you and me - the group members will decide what the focus should be. Any suggestions?
Sajith.
Your friends will know you better in the first moment you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a lifetime. -- Richard Bach, "Illusions"
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Krishnakumar G wrote:
Iam trying to understand the focus of this group. Can anyone please summarise it for me?
And Krishnakumar G later wrote:
So if i understood right,
- Create awareness for free software
- Get schools /colleges/instituions to use free software
Is there any plan to develop some new software which can be helpful in achieving the two points above?
The first thing that came to my mind is the Chicago 7 Conspiracy Trial of 7 hippies who had high contempt for everybody and everything, were alleged to be `conspiring together', when they really could not even agree on lunch :)
Your sharp antenna has picked up some right signals from the noise of this group.
If the nice sentiments register well, there would be better scouting and packaging the most useful from available lot of free software, and if that process could also be automated, it should help.
Cheers! Ramanraj.
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore schools (in terms of syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none of my colleagues have any school-related funda.
Computers as a subject was introduced when i was in 9th standard. The first half of the year, we were just playing some DOS games like paratrooper and Dave. Then we were taught qbasic. In 10th standard the subject wasnt there anymore, when we asked why? our vice princi said the it was because we were in *TENTH* Standard. -------------------------------------------------------------- Sreekiran.K.R - http://whitehats.cjb.net/ - dwija@phreaker.net Registered Linux User # 335122 at http://counter.li.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------
Ramanraj K said on Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 08:30:34PM +0530,:
[snip]
Any idea what is the scenario in bangalore schools (in terms of syllabus, courses, etc.,.)? Unfortunately none of my colleagues have any school-related funda.
And, what is the scenario everywhere else too [both in and out of India]?
In Kerala, IT is introduced as a mandatory subject in govt./aided high schools. The syllabus is based on both GNU/Linux and Windows so that the schools can choose the platform they want. Some schools choose gnu/linux as their platform. But most did not because
* the training for teachers is given only in windows. * almost all programs given in the resource CDs work only with windows. * Though the syllabus is almost platform neutral, some incompatibilities crept in the form of BASIC. Some BASIC programs in the text works only with qbasic or some other proprietary s/w.
Anyway this much had happened. And now all students and teachers at-least know there is an operating system called GNU/Linux...but still... dont know how many knows what free software really means...
...
Work is in progress for an Educational GNU/Linux based on Morphix. An experimental version of this CD is available at http://freesoftware.keltron.org/edumorphixcd.html. Full credits goes to Sajith VK of FSF-I.
regards, ~vimal
--
Vimal Joseph wrote: ,---- | * almost all programs given in the resource CDs work only with | windows. `----
Any plans (from the kerala GNU heads) of remaking a GNU/Linux compatible Resource CD?
,---- | * Though the syllabus is almost platform neutral, some | incompatibilities crept in the form of BASIC. Some BASIC programs in | the text works only with qbasic or some other proprietary s/w. `----
Why do they still teach BASIC? :-L (but agree, it can be great fun and alters the way students can think :) )
cheers,
-Suraj
Suraj Kumar said on Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 09:59:08AM +0530,:
Any plans (from the kerala GNU heads) of remaking a GNU/Linux compatible Resource CD?
I heard that some organization is trying to make GNU/Linux compatible resource cds. But it is not possible to make a completly GNU/Linux compatible resource cd set because MS Encarta is one of the resource cds and the official online exam software only work with windows xp.
B/w FYI, there is a project started at Hyderabad aiming to make gnu/linux text books and setting up ltsp labs using k12ltsp in schools. if you are intersted visit their page at <linuxschools.tripod.com>. They have a mailing list at http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux_schools
regards,
~vimal
--- Vimal Joseph vimalekm@vsnl.net wrote:
Suraj Kumar said on Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 09:59:08AM +0530,:
Any plans (from the kerala GNU heads) of
remaking a GNU/Linux
compatible Resource CD?
B/w FYI, there is a project started at Hyderabad aiming to make gnu/linux text books and setting up ltsp labs using k12ltsp in schools. if you are intersted visit their page at <linuxschools.tripod.com>. They have a mailing list at http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux_schools
Now, I found this project interesting.Thank you vimal, Shall follow it for while to see what we can do for them.
cheers
--arky
===== Rakesh 'arky' Ambati Email: rakesh_ambati@yahoo.com Bangalore,India Homepage: http://arky.port5.com/ ! ! ! ! ! ( o o ) ----oOO----(_)----OOo----
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Suraj Kumar wrote:
,---- | * Though the syllabus is almost platform neutral, some | incompatibilities crept in the form of BASIC. Some BASIC programs in | the text works only with qbasic or some other proprietary s/w. `----
Why do they still teach BASIC? :-L (but agree, it can be great fun and alters the way students can think :) )
A kid asked me if there is basic on my system, and I then I discovered bwBASIC:
#bwbasic Bywater BASIC Interpreter/Shell, version 2.20 patch level 2 Copyright (c) 1993, Ted A. Campbell Copyright (c) 1995-1997, Jon B. Volkoff bwBASIC:
Have fun!
Ramanraj K wrote:
At I Std, a Text Book is issued for `Computer Science'. The chapters are: 1. Introduction 2. Hello Computers 3. Parts of a Computer 4. Uses of Computer 5. Computers at Work 6. Type with Notepad [ms] 7. Let's Paint [with ms] Chapters 1 to 5 are vendor neutral, but with chapter 6, liberal screen shots introduce ms to kids. From now on, CS is like any other subject - Q&A and Tests based on the Text Book become part of the curriculum.
Which reminds of...
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. (attributed to Edsger Dijkstra.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science
Dijkstra is the man who called Software Engineering folks charlatans and quacks :) I don't remember which paper is that, but this manuscript has some "extreme" insight:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd13xx/EWD1305.PDF
Sajith.
Hi Friends,
Forgive me for top posting, please try to use a fresh title for new topics.
--arky
--- Sajith T S sajithts@softhome.net wrote:
Ramanraj K wrote:
At I Std, a Text Book is issued for `Computer
Science'. The chapters
are: 1. Introduction 2. Hello Computers 3. Parts
of a Computer 4. Uses
of Computer 5. Computers at Work 6. Type with
Notepad [ms] 7. Let's
Paint [with ms] Chapters 1 to 5 are vendor
neutral, but with chapter 6,
liberal screen shots introduce ms to kids. From
now on, CS is like any
other subject - Q&A and Tests based on the Text
Book become part of the
curriculum.
Which reminds of...
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. (attributed to Edsger Dijkstra.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science
Dijkstra is the man who called Software Engineering folks charlatans and quacks :) I don't remember which paper is that, but this manuscript has some "extreme" insight:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd13xx/EWD1305.PDF
Sajith.
Your friends will know you better in the first moment you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a lifetime. -- Richard Bach, "Illusions"
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Rakesh 'arky' Ambati wrote:
I think that July 21'st event would be great success, now that we have some great chap'a around here.Wish Ramanraj was in bangalore,though I'll try to get him shipped here for the event.
Arky, I am touched :) Certainly I will try to make it.
Regards, Ramanraj.
Hi Sajith,
What you have said is sad but true things. It is very difficult to fight outside and inside at the same time. Outside, the proprietary forces and inside, free software extremists. Some discussions in FSF India lists dragged us a lot. Pro free software and anti free software people have contributed in unfortunate incidents.
One thing i learn from the lists is that those who speak a lot are one who does the least. There were 4 incidents where some one came like a 'bang' complaining that FSF India is 'slow'. They offered to contribute and set things right. Interestingly all of them are now missing after given some responsibilities (which they chose). At the same time there are people doing the job slowly and silently.
Hence dont make a conclusion of what FSF India is based on the 'noise' in public lists. There are work going in the background.
Even if we couldnt make a revolution, we are making evolutionary progress.
regards, arun.
Arun M wrote:
What you have said is sad but true things. It is very difficult to fight outside and inside at the same time. Outside, the proprietary forces and inside, free software extremists. Some discussions in FSF India lists dragged us a lot. Pro free software and anti free software people have contributed in unfortunate incidents.
Proprietary forces are kind of easy to deal with - when they are convinced that Free Software makes business sense, they become us :) As simple as that - after all, they are running after profits. But sadly, its the inside forces that do more harm :(
Hence dont make a conclusion of what FSF India is based on the 'noise' in public lists. There are work going in the background.
Even if we couldnt make a revolution, we are making evolutionary progress.
Yes.
Sajith.
I'm not sure the old archives are any more there, since the lists changed location and names. I don't have much of a clue what happened with the organisation as such. But that's not what I want to talk about.
Probably I was mistaken. It may not be in archives at all, but I have those emails with me perhaps.
There are several instances of misbehaviour and cheap tactics enacted by the so called "torch bearers" of Free Software in India. Probably FSF India should start conduct a philosophy quiz before taking them "onboard" (pun intended :) ).
Certain members clearly do "double talk" - one in the fsf lists and another in the rest of the lists. It has become a complete waste of valuable time to read these lists, and so I unsubscribed from all afew days back, I even unsubscribed from this list, but them thought of just continueing as this is low volume.
I am sure, the great man himself knows most of what is happening, I have myself pointed out many of the double-speak to him.
As RMS says, one has to be uncompromising (or have lots of money) to achieve a task like spreading the Free Software Movement, I think, no single person of the FSF-India (past or present) qualifies this criteria.
It's more noise than signal in the lists and it's time to go away from the whole thing (atleast for me). I cannot tolerate this much of politics.
And one thing. The single big mistake RMS did was to start the FSF-India headquartered in Kerala. And as Dr. Kurian says, "the problem with Kerala is that there are too many malayalees there.. "
Ramakrishnan
rkrishnan@symonds.net wrote on Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 09:39:51PM -0700: ,---- | Apart from technical activities, I am also interested in carnatic | music. I studied carnatic music for about 14 years and was a B-grade | artist at All India Radio, Trichur (kerala) back when I was a | student. I don't have time for music now a days, but hope to spend | more time on music than on free software in the coming days. `----
wowowowowow!
-Suraj
rkrishnan@symonds.net wrote:
[resending since the mail did not make it to the list, there are problems with my postfix config..]
abhas> It would be nice if all of us could post a small introduction about abhas> ourselves here - that will ensure that we can have more meaningful abhas> discussion! And can depend on each others' respective strengths and abhas> resources to grow Free Software usage around here.
I am Ramakrishnan. I write non-free software for a living, specifically I do digital signal processing software which goes into VoIP gateways and IP Phones.
The moral dilemma was pointed out by Suraj also. If the company you work for releases all the code written under the GPL or like free license but charges for customisation or providing other services like installation and maintenance, this issue vanishes. I guess this issue is part of `advocacy' for free software and indicates that more advocacy is needed in India. A meaningful campaign from all possible directions need to be kept up until `software' means only `free software'.
I am single till June 24th (I am getting married on 25th June).
Congratulations :) Good Luck ;)
Regards, Ramanraj.
|| On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:28:42 +0530 || Ramanraj K ramanraj@md4.vsnl.net.in wrote:
ramanraj> The moral dilemma was pointed out by Suraj also. If the company you ramanraj> work for releases all the code written under the GPL or like free ramanraj> license but charges for customisation or providing other services like ramanraj> installation and maintenance, this issue vanishes. I guess this issue
No, they don't. And I don't think they ever will.
ramanraj> is part of `advocacy' for free software and indicates that more ramanraj> advocacy is needed in India. A meaningful campaign from all possible ramanraj> directions need to be kept up until `software' means only `free ramanraj> software'.
It's very difficult to convince indian companies. I had a short experience talking to one of the officials of a 'billion-dollar Indian company' afew months back. Even after repeatedly reminding him of the facts about free software and also admitting his own mistakes, he refused to use the term 'free software', and I ended my conversation there.
ramanraj> Congratulations :) Good Luck ;)
Thanks.
Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan wrote:
|| On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:28:42 +0530 || Ramanraj K ramanraj@md4.vsnl.net.in wrote:
ramanraj> The moral dilemma was pointed out by Suraj also. If the company you ramanraj> work for releases all the code written under the GPL or like free ramanraj> license but charges for customisation or providing other services like ramanraj> installation and maintenance, this issue vanishes. I guess this issue
No, they don't. And I don't think they ever will.
Only hard options are available in such cases. If _all_ software developers insist upon the right and freedom to use the code they themselves write, in their own interest, and for others, then the companies will learn to live with the reality and necessity of the free software philosophy.
I cannot say, " I am strictly professional, and for my living, I work for MS in the morning to earn my living, but in the evening I spend time working on FSF and even make contributions". It is perfectly lawful to say and do such a thing but morally most untenable. Please reject such arguments, because philosophies behind free and non-free code mutually negate each other, and one has to choose between the two. As more companies start accepting free software philosophy [Novell for instance], better options will open up, forcing the old order to accept the new order.
Until then, however, note that an author and his work are inseparable, and Section 57 of the Copyright Act gives special rights to authors, that includes authors of computer programs.
<quote> Section 57. Author's special right.- (1) Independently of the author's copyright and even after the assignment either wholly or partially of the said copyright, the author of a work shall have the right - (a) to claim authorship of the work; and (b) to restrain or claim damages in respect of any distortion, mutilation, modification or other act in relation to the said work which is done before the expiration of the term of copyright if such distortion, mutilation, modification or other act would be prejudicial to his honour or reputation:
Provided that the author shall not have any right to restrain or claim damages in respect of any adaptation of a computer programme to which clause (aa) of sub-section (1) of section 52 applies.
Explanation.- Failure to display a work or to display it to the satisfaction of the author shall not be deemed to be an infringement of the rights conferred by this section.
(2) The right conferred upon an author of a work by sub-section (1), other than the right to claim authorship of the work, may be exercised by the legal representatives of the author. </quote>
Note: Section 52 relates to fair use of copyright works.
If your company does not release the code you write under the GPL, then atleast, for the time being exercise your rights under section 57(1) to the fullest extent possible. Include in the CV details about the computer programs you have written for others. Please to make it known that you wish that your code was released under the GPL so that you yourself could use the same with freedom in the future, and also allow others to use them. If a company deliberately introduces bugs in computer programs so that it can force other to buy a higher bug free version, exercise of the very valuable right under Section 57(2) will greatly help stop the illegal mutilation.
It is only a question of time before which software will mean only free software, and until then, these issues may raise concerns in the interest of the moral well being of software developers.
ramanraj> is part of `advocacy' for free software and indicates that more ramanraj> advocacy is needed in India. A meaningful campaign from all possible ramanraj> directions need to be kept up until `software' means only `free ramanraj> software'.
It's very difficult to convince indian companies. I had a short experience talking to one of the officials of a 'billion-dollar Indian company' afew months back. Even after repeatedly reminding him of the facts about free software and also admitting his own mistakes, he refused to use the term 'free software', and I ended my conversation there.
They will change their ways to survive.
Regards, Ramanraj.
-
Abhas Abhinav -
Arun M -
Krishnakumar G -
Rakesh 'arky' Ambati -
Ramanraj K -
rkrishnan＠symonds.net -
Sajith T S -
Sreekiran -
Suraj -
Suraj Kumar
-
Vimal Joseph