I enjoyed the visit to the center on 14th. This center can set a good example of how free ICT can open up several new options. Making such a center sustainable and soon replicate that in several other places in the country is our challenge.
one of the immediate things that can be done is to create an album of paintings and create a book at lulu.com and market it internationally. That may generate some revenue, which can be used in turn to create more such centers.
Do check if the center can become a digital wikibazaar/mart by providing some services to the neighborhood. Does having such centers in rural and sub-urban areas possible? Can we use this center as a breeding center for others? there are several such questions I have in my mind.
As long as we do this with 100% transparency, these centers can demonstrate to the rest of the world how to run a p2p trade with social development and involvement.
-- Nagarjuna G http://www.gnowledge.org
Hi Nararjuna,
Thanks the initiation. The center is open for experiments. We immediately want to start recording the songs of Santhosh, who is good at singing and produce a music album out of it. Also, we will try and explore lulu.com. A road block right now is the internet connectivity in the center. Once this is resolved, I'm sure that painting album and the book can be brought out to the world directly by the students.
Yes, I think creating more such centers are possible in rural areas too. The kids at AC3 right now are energized by RMS, Eben and your visit and they told me that within one year they want to start 50 centers! This sounds too optimistic. But, I think we can do atleast 3 more in a year. So, these kids can be used as resource persons in starting other centers.
-balaji
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Nagarjuna G nagarjun@gnowledge.orgwrote:
I enjoyed the visit to the center on 14th. This center can set a good example of how free ICT can open up several new options. Making such a center sustainable and soon replicate that in several other places in the country is our challenge.
one of the immediate things that can be done is to create an album of paintings and create a book at lulu.com and market it internationally. That may generate some revenue, which can be used in turn to create more such centers.
Do check if the center can become a digital wikibazaar/mart by providing some services to the neighborhood. Does having such centers in rural and sub-urban areas possible? Can we use this center as a breeding center for others? there are several such questions I have in my mind.
As long as we do this with 100% transparency, these centers can demonstrate to the rest of the world how to run a p2p trade with social development and involvement.
-- Nagarjuna G http://www.gnowledge.org
FSUG-Bangalore mailing list FSUG-Bangalore@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fsug-bangalore
I enjoyed the visit to the center on 14th. This center can set a good example of how free ICT can open up several new options. Making such a center sustainable and soon replicate that in several other places in the country is our challenge.
one of the immediate things that can be done is to create an album of paintings and create a book at lulu.com and market it internationally. That may generate some revenue, which can be used in turn to create more such centers.
Do check if the center can become a digital wikibazaar/mart by providing some services to the neighborhood. Does having such centers in rural and sub-urban areas possible? Can we use this center as a breeding center for others? there are several such questions I have in my mind.
As long as we do this with 100% transparency, these centers can demonstrate to the rest of the world how to run a p2p trade with social development and involvement.
Dear dr nargarjun..thanks much for initating this dialougue. I would like to bring in another aspect of the debate. as we talk about free ICT...we need to talk about free society - the lack of toilets in the area - the wage injustice - lack of clean water...so there is a rights approach as well - as the center exists in a society which is not just - and we will be wrong in only speaking about the encoding and decoding of the digital word - but not the working class/caste/gender world .
In some sense its the rights approach that has helped the center..Sarasu's book "The future is ours" has glimpses of this. The peoples movements songs we sing..are also important part of the work - as much as gimp.
RMS When asked what he would wish for them and their slum, he said: "I want other people to stop *ill-treating you all* ( emphasis mine) and I want things to look up. And will Free Software do that? No, but I hope it will make a change in small ways."
Quoting Sarasu from the AC3 - the first lines of her book - "For most people, the mention of slums reminds them of a nasty place. They forget that those who live in these areas are human being. People fail to understand that we have same rights as they have."
-s
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 13:43 +0530, Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) wrote:
Dear dr nargarjun..thanks much for initating this dialougue. I would like to bring in another aspect of the debate. as we talk about free ICT...we need to talk about free society - the lack of toilets in the area - the wage injustice - lack of clean water...so there is a rights approach as well - as the center exists in a society which is not just - and we will be wrong in only speaking about the encoding and decoding of the digital word - but not the working class/caste/gender world .
In some sense its the rights approach that has helped the center..Sarasu's book "The future is ours" has glimpses of this. The peoples movements songs we sing..are also important part of the work - as much as gimp.
We are workers and what work we do depends on what skills we have. And what skills we have depends on what access we had. Unless we are born rich, access to what we need is denied. What free ICT does is to make that access possible by giving the right to access for more people to participate in active social life.
If we analyze carefully how surplus gets generated, and look at the cause of it, we do realize that it comes from the worker's skills (This is of course from Marx). Except for labor (unskilled work) the rest of the skills are controlled by the owners of the workers, by holding the tools we use in their custody, and by owning the workers (all the non-disclosure agreements workers sign when they join as employees). workers do not have the freedom to transmit the skills to others without permission from the owners. If you look at this issue a little more closely, we see that the transmission of these skills actually requires the right to read and write, for learning a skill requires a right to interpret. my suggestion is to support the transmission of skills using free ICT. which will eventually help people to learn the skills they need. ICT made the access almost zero cost.
My theory is that the divisions that we see in the society are primarily due to lack of free flow of knowledge, because it is knowledge that creates the added value. Rich may like to give away their material wealth often, but they seldom share their knowledge. For them knowledge is the ultimate means of exploitation, that is their real capital. Stock exchange is another place where knowledge is frequently bartered. Knowledge ceases to be a means of exploitations once it is freed. That is the reason why I consider freeing knowledge leads to free society.
Take away the tools human beings use, take away the languages, songs, and paintings we use, what remains is a the brute animal with flesh and bones.
Briefly, the human beings in the so called slums do not have many other rights, I do agree with you on that, but my analysis suggests that those rights can not be and will not be available to us unless we free knowledge. Software being a small subset of that knowledge, but with huge exploitative potential, holding that in people's hands rather than in the hands of the MMCs or with Govt is a very important step. Therefore imparting this new skill will not deny them the other rights, in fact this skill will help them to gain control of the social process.
One of the reason why I emphasize the need for entering into wikitrade, because it will take care of subsistence requirements as well as the flow of knowledge and eliminates the possibility of exploitative powers.
All other rights are subservient to the right to read. Right to information does not still give you the right to read, since the means of reading are held by someone else.
Bottomline is: No one can compete with us in sharing knowledge (or transparency). This is our hack. By amplifying this in every social department we can achieve what we want to achieve. I have very briefly outlined the logic in gnowledge manifesto presented in the first FSFS conference in Trivandrum. http://db.hbcse.tifr.res.in/gn/gnowledge-manifesto.html One day I will elaborate this into a full essay.
Even if I am wrong, we are not loosing anything by providing one of the fundamental rights. Right?
Nagarjuna
< Briefly, the human beings in the so called slums do not have many other rights, I do agree with you on that, but my analysis suggests that those rights can not be and will not be available to us unless we free knowledge.
Freeing knowledge would ofcourse increase the conscious of the oppressed about their rights, but would that automatically give them the basic rights? Most of the denial of their rights stems from the fact that the resources are still captivated by a minority in the society. Unless they fight for those rights, these rights would always be alien for them though in the process though there might be progress in their situation based on the intensity of different struggles. ICT has revolutionised the world in such a way that human beings if have access can attain most of the knowldge at their finger tips and also establish communication with anyone in any part of the world. But the denial of the basic rights would still cause them obstacles even to freely pursue this available Free Knowledge. Though we see them laughing, singing, playing in the daylight and among the crowd each of them might have different difficult situations in their homes which are mostly connected to their lack of accessibility of their basic rights. We can build good toilets and better infrastructure in their locality if we go for fund drive, but would that give a solution to their numeorus other problems they are facing ? Especially in a city like Bangalore with high rates of inflation - what about the food costs, health costs, transportation costs ? Most of the families at the average 3 or 4 children or more, and I think AC3 kids are better off than children in many other areas.
<Even if I am wrong, we are not loosing anything by providing one of the fundamental rights. Right?
I completely accept your theory of what Free Knowledge is able to provide to the deprived sections of the society, but would that be enough? Can't we do extra if we can ?? Can't we use ICT which has far more applications than we forsee to fight for their rights too ? Or is it that we should only focus on Freeing knowledge and fighting for their rights would end us nowhere ??? Can't we use this tool to its potential if it can be ?? If so HOW ???
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Nagarjuna G nagarjun@gnowledge.org wrote:
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 13:43 +0530, Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) wrote:
Dear dr nargarjun..thanks much for initating this dialougue. I would like to bring in another aspect of the debate. as we talk about free ICT...we need to talk about free society - the lack of toilets in the area - the wage injustice - lack of clean water...so there is a rights approach as well - as the center exists in a society which is not just - and we will be wrong in only speaking about the encoding and decoding of the digital word - but not the working class/caste/gender world .
In some sense its the rights approach that has helped the center..Sarasu's book "The future is ours" has glimpses of this. The peoples movements songs we sing..are also important part of the work - as much as gimp.
We are workers and what work we do depends on what skills we have. And what skills we have depends on what access we had. Unless we are born rich, access to what we need is denied. What free ICT does is to make that access possible by giving the right to access for more people to participate in active social life.
If we analyze carefully how surplus gets generated, and look at the cause of it, we do realize that it comes from the worker's skills (This is of course from Marx). Except for labor (unskilled work) the rest of the skills are controlled by the owners of the workers, by holding the tools we use in their custody, and by owning the workers (all the non-disclosure agreements workers sign when they join as employees). workers do not have the freedom to transmit the skills to others without permission from the owners. If you look at this issue a little more closely, we see that the transmission of these skills actually requires the right to read and write, for learning a skill requires a right to interpret. my suggestion is to support the transmission of skills using free ICT. which will eventually help people to learn the skills they need. ICT made the access almost zero cost.
My theory is that the divisions that we see in the society are primarily due to lack of free flow of knowledge, because it is knowledge that creates the added value. Rich may like to give away their material wealth often, but they seldom share their knowledge. For them knowledge is the ultimate means of exploitation, that is their real capital. Stock exchange is another place where knowledge is frequently bartered. Knowledge ceases to be a means of exploitations once it is freed. That is the reason why I consider freeing knowledge leads to free society.
Take away the tools human beings use, take away the languages, songs, and paintings we use, what remains is a the brute animal with flesh and bones.
Briefly, the human beings in the so called slums do not have many other rights, I do agree with you on that, but my analysis suggests that those rights can not be and will not be available to us unless we free knowledge. Software being a small subset of that knowledge, but with huge exploitative potential, holding that in people's hands rather than in the hands of the MMCs or with Govt is a very important step. Therefore imparting this new skill will not deny them the other rights, in fact this skill will help them to gain control of the social process.
One of the reason why I emphasize the need for entering into wikitrade, because it will take care of subsistence requirements as well as the flow of knowledge and eliminates the possibility of exploitative powers.
All other rights are subservient to the right to read. Right to information does not still give you the right to read, since the means of reading are held by someone else.
Bottomline is: No one can compete with us in sharing knowledge (or transparency). This is our hack. By amplifying this in every social department we can achieve what we want to achieve. I have very briefly outlined the logic in gnowledge manifesto presented in the first FSFS conference in Trivandrum. http://db.hbcse.tifr.res.in/gn/gnowledge-manifesto.html One day I will elaborate this into a full essay.
Even if I am wrong, we are not loosing anything by providing one of the fundamental rights. Right?
Nagarjuna
FSUG-Bangalore mailing list FSUG-Bangalore@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fsug-bangalore
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 15:45 +0530, Nidhin Sasi wrote:
Freeing knowledge would ofcourse increase the conscious of the oppressed about their rights, but would that automatically give them the basic rights? Most of the denial of their rights stems from the fact that the resources are still captivated by a minority in the society. Unless they fight for those rights, these rights would always be alien for them though in the process though there might be progress in their situation based on the intensity of different struggles. ICT has revolutionised the world in such a way that human beings if have access can attain most of the knowldge at their finger tips and also establish communication with anyone in any part of the world. But the denial of the basic rights would still cause them obstacles even to freely pursue this available Free Knowledge. Though we see them laughing, singing, playing in the daylight and among the crowd each of them might have different difficult situations in their homes which are mostly connected to their lack of accessibility of their basic rights. We can build good toilets and better infrastructure in their locality if we go for fund drive, but would that give a solution to their numeorus other problems they are facing ? Especially in a city like Bangalore with high rates of inflation - what about the food costs, health costs, transportation costs ? Most of the families at the average 3 or 4 children or more, and I think AC3 kids are better off than children in many other areas.
Fighting without empowering oneself is not effective. Currently people do fight with external help from a political party or a social organization, and external leadership and continue to remain powerless even after struggles after struggles.
Sustainable social change does not come without power in the local hands. They cannot claim power without knowledge.
Nagarjuna
Fighting without empowering oneself is not effective. Currently people
do fight with external help from a political party or a social organization, and external leadership and continue to remain powerless even after struggles after struggles.
As far as I considered Fighting itself was for empowering onself .Oppressed sections of the society mostly had the "*help*" of externalforces or group of people or political party and very few times people like Nelson Mandela, Ambedkar, Martin Luther King etc. came from those oppressed sections to fight for them and make progress for them. But even after struggles under people of such profound knowldge are these sections empowered ?? These progress have been witnessed in othe former cases too where the oppressed sections were helped by external force or political party. Hence I believe the fighting & empowering comes with the profound understanding from a historic perspective and as you said very correctly power should be with the Oppressed sections but that shouldn't prevent them from using the methods available for advance if there are any.
They cannot claim power without knowledge.
Can you pls elaborate the scientific basis of this conclusion? As I have mentioned previousy knowledge is essential fopr empowerment and claiming power. But how "*Only*" knowledge can lead them to empowerment and power ? Shouldn't we look at the other aspects of their problems too or should we restrict only to this 1 aspect - knowledge ?
As I raised the questions previously :
"I completely accept your theory of what Free Knowledge is able to provide to the deprived sections of the society, but would that be enough? Can't we do extra if we can ?? Can't we use ICT which has far more applications than we forsee to fight for their rights too ? Or is it that we should only focus on Freeing knowledge and fighting for their rights would end us nowhere ??? Can't we use this tool to its potential if it can be ?? If so HOW ???"
On 12/17/08, Nagarjuna G nagarjun@gnowledge.org wrote:
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 15:45 +0530, Nidhin Sasi wrote:
Freeing knowledge would ofcourse increase the conscious of the oppressed about their rights, but would that automatically give them the basic rights? Most of the denial of their rights stems from the fact that the resources are still captivated by a minority in the society. Unless they fight for those rights, these rights would always be alien for them though in the process though there might be progress in their situation based on the intensity of different struggles. ICT has revolutionised the world in such a way that human beings if have access can attain most of the knowldge at their finger tips and also establish communication with anyone in any part of the world. But the denial of the basic rights would still cause them obstacles even to freely pursue this available Free Knowledge. Though we see them laughing, singing, playing in the daylight and among the crowd each of them might have different difficult situations in their homes which are mostly connected to their lack of accessibility of their basic rights. We can build good toilets and better infrastructure in their locality if we go for fund drive, but would that give a solution to their numeorus other problems they are facing ? Especially in a city like Bangalore with high rates of inflation - what about the food costs, health costs, transportation costs ? Most of the families at the average 3 or 4 children or more, and I think AC3 kids are better off than children in many other areas.
Fighting without empowering oneself is not effective. Currently people do fight with external help from a political party or a social organization, and external leadership and continue to remain powerless even after struggles after struggles.
Sustainable social change does not come without power in the local hands. They cannot claim power without knowledge.
Nagarjuna
-
Balaji Kutty -
Nagarjuna G -
Nidhin Sasi -
Senthil Sundaram (sensunda)